Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[david_l]

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

[drcy]

I think they should change the names. But that's just my opinion.

I also think they will.

[KMayUSA6060]

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

[Natswin2019]

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Natswin2019

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

How about the Washington Wanabes seeing how they have only won 3 playoff games since their SuperBowl in 1991? Sorry, just being sarcastic.... All of this name changing is just a bunch of garbage, period... People, get a life and move on with your freaking lives

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

Well stated. People never seem to be able to just move on from the crap in society.
Play ball everyone and enjoy your life! There are always MUCH bigger problems...

[buymycards]

Why do we need nicknames? Isn't "Cleveland" enough? People can figure it out.

[bbcard1]

I don't think the Braves and Indians HAVE to change their name as it is a people and not a degrading term, but I think they probably will. I think Notre Dame Fighting Irish will probably also and Washington & Lee is having a horrible time figuring out what to do.

[Case12]

Washington Smurfs

[pclpads]

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

They've been talking about changing the Redskins name in the DC area for probably the last 10 years at different levels of seriousness. It's not exactly a new topic of conversation for us at least.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

How would you like to have all of your property confiscated by the government and be confined on a reservation and not allowed to leave? It has nothing to do with PC. Native Americans don’t want their names and imagery used by a group of people who has treated them poorly for 400 years. How about changing the name to the Washington Blackskins and have a white guy dressed up in black face on the sideline. Would that be ok?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.

[Aj-hman]

I believe that the braves, indians and redskins have an opportunity to succeed either way they go. I am sure there is a native american nation that would consider adopting one of these sports teams. If a sovereign native american nation adopts the team it would legitimize the sports organization and provide a benefit to both. Changing the narrative from that of caricature to one of respect could uplift the native american community and propel the sports team in a new respectful direction. Also creating new marketing opportunities. Open a dialogue with the leadership of native american community see what they have say about using their likeness and telling their story. There are so many benefits to opening a dialogue.

If keeping affiliation with native american branding is not the way forward then rebranding the team is an amazing opportunity. You get to create a whole new culture for your fans and create a deep well of marketing opportunities. With the social media allowing almost immediate feedback the fan base would practically rebrand themselves.

With adversity comes an opportunity for tremendous growth. Being positive and open minded to the inevitability of change leads to success.

Aaron

[packs]

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by packs

Personally I think if these franchises wanted to honor Native Americans or their heritage they could make a pretty good show of good faith by actually hiring a Native American for a senior position with the franchise.

Instead of trying to pander to an entire ethnic group, why not just hire people that are THE BEST for the job, period?? Isn't that the whole point of a modern cosmopolitan world, to ignore race and colour??

Trying to placate others by offering employment based SOLELY on skin colour is ALWAYS a losing proposition.
And giving someone a job does NOTHING to "honour" their culture or "heritage"... absolutely nothing.

This should be beyond common sense in 2020.

[samosa4u]

Isn't "Yankee" a derogatory term? Well, let's change it! Oh, and wait, what about the Vikings? That's a little bit racist too, no? Let's change that one as well! Like seriously, when are these people going to stop? Next we'll see animal rights groups going after teams.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

Actually, I think it does matter that I don't see color/race. Isn't that the whole damn point of all of this? So if you choose to see it, that's on you.

So we have the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, with an aggressively-stanced caricature of an Irish Leprechaun. I'm assuming you're spearheading the movement to change that, too, on behalf of the Irish? What about the Boston Celtics? New England Patriots?

Nobody here put the Native Americans on reservations. However, everyone is asked their race/ethnicity on all sorts of documents. Everyone who applied to college was judged based on their race/ethnicity (hence their diversity quotas). I don't see a single person ever protesting outside of the reservations on behalf of the Native Americans. It's basically a bunch of non-Native Americans telling others non-Native Americans that they're racists for rooting for a team with a cartoon as a logo.

It sounds like you sleep just fine at night because a sports team logo no longer exists to offend you. Congrats. Don't tell me how to think. Let me sleep well at night, too, knowing I have identified the real problem, and changing a sports logo/team name doesn't even touch the solution.

You didn't directly address it - do you not see why the Chief Wahoo logo was changed?

The difference between Redskins and Celtics/Patriots/Fighting Irish and the others is, of course, one is a racial slur and the rest aren't.

I'm not crazy about "Fighting Irish" but Irish people don't seem to care and it's not a racial slur. My main beef is that it's a school with a FRENCH name but called IRISH. WTF. [/snark].

[david_l]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted their comments. I will respect their edits and not quote them.

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[packs]

Poster deleted comment will respect the edit and not post them.

[Aj-hman]

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Originally Posted by G1911

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[wondo]

I cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the NFL. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the Virginia Redskins.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by wondo

i cannot believe we as a society have let the vile disgusting name continued to be used in the nfl. This is 2020 and no one should be subject to such public humiliation with a major sports franchise name that offends, degrades and panders to the lowest common denominator in our society. The name should be changed to the virginia redskins.

lol!!!!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Aj-hman

I hope you do not delete your posts in the future. Much like the statues of war leaders their symbolic meaning changes with time. I dont believe in sanitizing history the comments you make will stand as a testament of where we are in this moment as a nation painting a more vivid message for our country men that follow.
Kindly,
Aaron Heineman

Unfortunately, the guy on the 'tolerant' side escalated things from a conversation and is now harassing other people because I disagree with their political view. This just isn't worth it.

[cannonballsun]

I think just about all the posters on this thread are missing the point. As White Americans, our opinions don't really matter on this issue. As well , the opinions don't really matter of Black Americans, or any other group besides Native Americans. Their opinion on this is what matters.
These names are applied to Native Americans. If they find it offensive, that should be enough for the rest of us. It's a matter of giving a fellow human being respect. If Native Americans want these names removed, that should be enough.
Respect your fellow human beings. Such a concept.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by david_l

You’ve been called a racist because you are in a unique place of privilege where you have the luxury to ignore race and racism and apparently you choose to do so. You’ve been called a racist because you have an opportunity to assist in helping those who have been oppressed and otherized but you would rather ignore this opportunity. The concept and repercussions of race exist in this country even if you have the luxury of not acknowledging it. Many others don’t have that luxury. Whether you acknowledge it or not you have benefited from the racist legacy of this country. For example, do you know about redlining in Cleveland? (Don’t answer that)

I’m from Ohio and it also took me a long time to see these names for what they are, but that’s no excuse. Wahoo isn’t even arguable anymore though.

I wish I could say this nicer but your post comes off as really ignorant. Maybe try reading some history and sociology books by people of color. It’s 2020 and racism is finally getting (more) called out. I could be wrong but at least I’d be wrong on the side of compassion and empathy. I wish you and your family the best.

Written on Nez Perce land,

David Lu$ti$

I agree that being born a middle class white guy has afforded me some privileges. I didn’t ask for them nor will I apologize for them as well. As a country, we have to be very careful how we address privilege as a subject. It’s only natural that if you tell someone, anyone that they have the deck stacked against them, they are victims from birth and nothing can change that fact, then what motivation is there to look at the world from any other viewpoint? Instead of bemoaning my privilege and groveling, I’m more interested in how can we actually improve the human condition of people in places like Baltimore, Chicago, etc.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by david_l

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

The only part of your post that is factual is the reneged promises and treaties, of which nobody alive today had any involvement.

Indian tribes were butchering and scalping each other long before Europeans arrived on the scene. If genocide was the goal, it was a miserable failure. There are far more people alive today with Indian ancestry than in 1800, with far greater life expectancy.

The only reason we know of great Indian leaders like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse is because of the written English language, and photography. The reason we know virtually nothing about the great Indians of 500 or more years past, is that the Indians weren't able to record their history until Europeans began documenting it for them. Indian words are memorialized forever in the names of our cities, states, rivers, lakes, etc.

As we know, several Indians were in the Big Leagues going back to the turn of the last century, and generally, they were extremely popular. In fact, Cleveland's team was named after one of them. Overt racism at some point in distant history, sure. But no one alive today was involved in the Indian wars. That was other people in another time.

[packs]

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

Yes, the Trail of Tears was a bad thing that happened 170 years ago. Nobody alive today is to blame for it and nobody alive today was forced from their homeland.

I have been to a Blackfoot reservation in Montana when I was young (to visit my uncle and his family,) I'm aware of the poverty in reservations near Grants, New Mexico, and I go to the racetrack/casino, Canterbury Park, in Shakopee MN, where My buddies and I stable our racehorse for the summer. There is a Sioux reservation there, and it might dispel your assumptions to learn this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lion-year.html

There's little need for any member of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe to work. Each adult in the 460-person American Indian nation receives more than $1million a year - for doing nothing.Aug 12, 2012

Inside the richest native American tribe in the U.S. where casino profits pay $1m a year to EVERY member

Payouts coming out of the money the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe makes through its highly profitable casinos

About 460 people live within the tribe

Between Mystic Lake and the Little Six Casino - tribal revenues are thought to be nearly $1.4billion

[packs]

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

That is like saying everyone alive today walked out of Africa. It's silly.

[packs]

Except it's not the same thing at all because we're talking about something concrete. You said you have an understanding of reservations. So if your family was forcibly relocated there from your actual home, and you still live there, how else do you explain your presence?

[Jason19th]

It is not true to say that no one alive was victim to the two century attempt to destroy Native land and identity. Well into the 1960’s and 1970’s young native children were taken from their families to be sent to Indian schools or to be placed with white families. This was done to strip these children of their heritage.

It was not until 1978 the the Indian Child Welfare Act was passed to address this issue

This in Not ancient history