1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

From Hatorade’s amazing flikr collection, my nominee for rarest of the box versions. What should this strange, inverted color scheme be called? And if I’m wrong and someone has 200 of them, feel free to let me know!

We ended up calling these cards "negatives" because the way the ad appears kind of reminded us of the old photo negatives from camera film. The red one you linked is the lightly tinted form and then they become darker all the way up to the dark "black box" version from your website we referenced earlier.

After looking at the 1987 Donn Jennings Randy Johnson card I think not only did he have no problem being associated with tobacco, but maybe he has a thing for appearing next to the Marlboro ads?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

We ended up calling these cards "negatives" because the way the ad appears kind of reminded us of the old photo negatives from camera film. The red one you linked is the lightly tinted form and then they become darker all the way up to the dark "black box" version from your website we referenced earlier.

After looking at the 1987 Donn Jennings Randy Johnson card I think not only did he have no problem being associated with tobacco, but maybe he has a thing for appearing next to the Marlboro ads?

I am thinking something similar. Considering the other 1988, 1989 and 1990 Fleer cards with prominent Marlboro (and other cigarette and alcohol ads), I think there is another, yet revealed, reason for the cover-up.

[Extra Innings]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

After looking at the 1987 Donn Jennings Randy Johnson card I think not only did he have no problem being associated with tobacco, but maybe he has a thing for appearing next to the Marlboro ads?

I don't think the name on the back of that jersey says 'Johnson'. The last letter looks like an 'S'.

[jp1216]

Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.

[saucywombat]

Fun thread have enjoyed the read.

Related fun card (I believe) is 1989 Topps Steve Searcy, where a difference in cropping was made that obscures the Marlboro ad. Earlier versions show the ad more clearly later ones don't.

Now all the 1989 Topps Future Stars have these slight cropping variations, so it made me wonder if these differences are perhaps all tied to making a change to the Searcy card to hide the Marlboro ad. Only the Future Stars cards have these cropping differences (and they appear on different printing sheets) so it can reasonably assumed that the cropping was intentionally done for some reason.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Extra Innings

I don't think the name on the back of that jersey says 'Johnson'. The last letter looks like an 'S'.

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.

Originally Posted by saucywombat

Fun thread have enjoyed the read.
Related fun card (I believe) is 1989 Topps Steve Searcy, where a difference in cropping was made that obscures the Marlboro ad. Earlier versions show the ad more clearly later ones don't.
Now all the 1989 Topps Future Stars have these slight cropping variations, so it made me wonder if these differences are perhaps all tied to making a change to the Searcy card to hide the Marlboro ad. Only the Future Stars cards have these cropping differences (and they appear on different printing sheets) so it can reasonably assumed that the cropping was intentionally done for some reason.

It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

I disagree with this new theory. I do believe that they made a design change because of the Future Stars type and how it fit with the photo size and uniformity of the set’s design. The Searcy is a coincidence and I’m fairly certain that other 1989 Topps (and other brands) have cards showing the cigarette signs in the background.

See also the Gregg Jefferies card on 1989 wax boxes and the multiple changes that the Sheffield went through.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.



It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

[saucywombat]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

This is great

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

You're really on the right track with this. One hint I can suggest is that there are at least two separate, but very similar red tint lineages. I've attached a couple images of 1 of the darker versions of each of these 2 red attempts, which would be at the bottom of each of the two red columns on your chart. I’ve also included another image of the dark blue I have for the bottom of the blue column.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

I'm 99% sure is says Expos. You can see an E on the back of some other players in their Jacksonville team sets.



It sure does seem the cropping changes were done to obscure the Marlboro advertisement. I was unaware of these 1989 Topps variations. Thank you for pointing to a 2nd example and 2nd manufacturer that year that covered a tobacco ad by editing it out during production, which is another interesting clue.

We've discussed the Clear/Blue, Fish and Negative versions of these error variations a little. That leaves the Marlboro, Red, Greens and...what else??Steve posted a really cool picture of some of his Marlboro versions on another site and hopefully he'll share it here as well. Who else has some images of their other versions they would like to share?

Also, during the recent downtime, I scanned some of my clearest PSA graded ("no-tint") examples using the same scanner with same scan settings. Here is that picture in case anyone is interested. All of the cards pictured except the clearest version one (i.e., N1, or "no tint" clarity 1) would fall in the N2 ("no tint" clarity 2) bin.


https://imgur.com/a/DgBH8Yh