1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by griffon512

Maybe I missed it in the novella, but it is unclear to me how you are distinguishing "Sport Star Subjects" from "Bond Bread." Please explain it clearly so a layman could make the distinction if analyzing the two different sets, or maybe someone else can if there is validity to it. If there is not a clear distinction in appearance than the presumption you are making below is just based on how packaging differences are likely to impact the condition of the cards, rather than other objective data.

Okay James, You want an answer on how to distinguish the Bond Bread insert cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. I assume we all want the same for the Festberg remainders and other related cards too.

While picture defects in the halftone master used to make all of the molded lead die-cuts used to print the Bond Bread inserts, the Sport Star Subjects, and the Festberg remainders will all be consistent throughout, the specific die-cut defects of those cuts used to print the Sport Star Subject cards will be different than those on the die-cuts used to print original Bond Bread inserts. The Festberg remainder find is reported to have contained less than 5,000 of each card, which could mean that only one die-cut per player was used in printing the cards in the hoard.

We need genuine examples of Bond Bread insert cards to compare against genuine examples of Sport Star Subjects cards to see what non-consistent printing flaws appear on Sport Star Subjects cards. Only one of each original Bond Bread insert card would be sufficient to identify the differences. However, with more than one die-cut per player used to print the estimated quantity of Sport Star Subjects sets made, more than one of each player card from the Sport Star Subjects set will be needed to fully identify all varieties. The cards from one Sport Star Subjects set will give us a good start.

We all owe a thanks to David M., member GasHouseGang, who had the foresight to give us in Post #216 above pictures of the complete Sport Star Subjects set that sold on eBay in May 2020 for $4545. David did the best he could, and acknowledges no higher resolution scans were available from eBay. Those scans may help us identify some rudimentary die-cut flaws distinctions of that set, but without high resolution scans the real details cannot be seen. Scans of cards should be made of cards taken outside of any sleeves, slabs or anything else that could distort the image.

Here is what I propose:

Ted, you started this. You have original Bond Bread cards taken from Bond Bread packages that you collected way back then. If you would kindly post a high resolution scan of the front of each different original package insert card you have, we would have a base from which to identify the distinctive printing flaws of Sport Star Subjects cards that are not on the master halftone from which the die-cuts used to print all of the cards were made. From other scans you have posted in this thread, it seems that you are able to provide sufficiently high resolution to make distinctions even when you post cards in groups of four, six or so. You know the limitations of your scanner and can post accordingly. If you cannot post all the different cards, perhaps, others can fill in the blanks?

I will post most of the cards from the Festberg remainders, as I have many of them loose in card sleeves.

I would ask anyone who has access to any card(s) from the Sports Star Subjects set to post a good scan of the front of the card(s). Both rounded and square corner cards are needed.

If anyone has any other ideas on how we can do this, let us know.

Thanks, Mike

[phikappapsi]

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by phikappapsi

man this has been a lot of words for an "i dunno"

I didn't say "I dunno". As I have repeated said in this Appendix, its purpose is to identify the issues, not resolve them, and that would appear in the main text of this article. I have been researching and drafting for that part a reasonable explanation of how to generally tell Bond Bread cards from Sport Star Subjects cards. People accept the absolute opinion of grading card services as to what is a "Bond Bread" card and spend money based on their false conclusions. With every general rule, there may be exceptions. Your response is appreciated because it indicates the need for a rule without potential exceptions before many will consider the issue has resolution and any change in current identifications will be made.

I specifically requested the posting of precise information which if provided will eliminate such exceptions to a rule and fully define the difference between Bond Bread package insert cards and Sport Star Subject cards. If you have any cards you can guarantee are original Bond Bread insert or Sport Star Subjects cards, please post them. Do not dismiss the prior request for posting of cards as many may not be satisfied with just a general rule.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[spec]

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

The reason for the rounded corners will be explained in the main text. Just because you haven't seen them does not mean they do not exist. Just yesterday I posted a Bobby Doerr card I had never seen before. It had been identified by the seller as a Bond Bread card. After it arrived, I asked the readers of this thread what it was. Cardinalcollector responded it was a 1975 Sports Heritage collector's edition. I had never heard of the set before. Two other cards from that set also have the same pictures as used in the Bond Bread insert set - those are that set's #SH144 Ralph Kiner and #SH136 Vern Stephens. We want to prove what all of the cards are. In terms of actual proof, which would have more evidentiary value, "I never seen the cards before" or "I have had [them] for many years . . . and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards?" Look at Post #216 of 5-14 2020 above to see a rounded corner Sport Star Subjects set.

Ted, don't give up. We really need your help. You are one of the few people who still has cards that can be proven to have been taken out of Bond Bread packages. Please post the front of each different Bond Bread insert card you have so that we can make the distinction between them and the Sport Star Subjects cards as I suggested earlier today in Post #252.

Thanks, Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.

Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff.

It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly a relatively recent "scam" on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.
.

Originally Posted by spec

I'm not quite as ancient as my friend Ted, so I didn't collect these when they were issued, but I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets (plus another dated 1951) and ALL have rounded corners just like the Bond Bread baseball cards.

Spec

How long ago is....." I have had for many years the four movie star boxed sets " ?


Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Here are samples from my Movie Star set.....




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

[spec]

Hi Ted,
Since I purchased my Movie Star Subjects long ago and am satisfied that they are authentic and unaltered, I don't require a "logical, common sense explanation" for the rounded corners. However, I would offer this possibility: The firm that printed the Bond Bread cards later contracted to furnish cards of ball players, boxers and movie stars to W.S./N.Y. (Wildman?), using overstock or at least the same setup they used for the Bond cards. Upon reorder, or running out of overstock, they decided it was cheaper (or at least unnecessary) to round the corners. Of course, this is purely conjecture, but it is "logical."

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mike....or, anyone else interested in this stuff.

We are waiting for a logical, common sense explanation as to why anyone (or a Company) would bevel the corners of these cards (which were SQUARE to begin with),
and were intended to be inserted into SQUARE boxes ? ?

So far, your very elaborate presentation has failed to answer this very elementary question.

.

It makes no common sense to me to attribute every Bond Bread look alike that has a white back and rounded corners as a Bond Bread insert card. This has been done for many cards posted in this thread. We cannot dispute Sport Star Subjects sets exist with rounded corners, regardless of when manufactured. It is not common sense to apply an arbitrary definition to something it is not.

Ted, I made a simple request to resolve the issue. If you have not mixed the cards you acquired after you returned to the hobby in 1977 with your original Bond Bread insert cards taken from Bond Bread packages and can still distinguish which are the cards you actually obtained from Bond Bread packages, please post scans of the original insert cards so that the Sport Star Subjects cards with rounded corners can be distinguished from them by the molded lead die-cuts used.

Also, if anyone who has the square cornered Sport Star Subjects set would post that, we would have a basis to determine whether a card being offered is a trimmed corner card from that set.

Of course, the scans need to be of sufficient high quality to show the printing details.

Thanks, Mike

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For you new members that don't know me, as a kid I collected Sportscards from 1947 to 1952. I returned to this great hobby in 1977. I was fortunate to recover all my
original collection from my youth (which included my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards).
All these years, I have never seen beveled-cornered cards in boxes such as the Sport Star Subjects ones. I have (or had) the SQUARE cornered cards from these boxes,
Baseball and Movie Stars.



Really, it absolutely defies common sense for the BB cards in the Sport Star Subjects boxes to have ROUNDED corners.

What I suspect is that either the original 1947 BOND BREAD cards were "stuffed" into these 4 boxes....OR....the original 1949 SQUARE cornered cards were beveled and
"stuffed" into the 4 boxes. I inquired of other veteran hobbyist; and, they do NOT recall ever seeing this unusual stuff. It appears to me (and others) that this is possibly
a relatively recent "scam"on the hobby.

Why would any one resort to this kind of fraud is anyone's guess. Perhaps, because for a long time the Grading Companies would not grade the 1947 BOND BREAD cards,
and some "genius" thought that this would persuade the Graders to be inclined to grade these cards.

Whatever, I want no part of this shameless scam. I do not accept the legitimacy of ROUNDED cornered cards within Sport Stars Subjects (or Movie Star Subjects) boxes.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thank you Ted. Well said.

Isn’t it possible individuals are simply clipping the corners off of the cards that originated from the Sports Star Subjects set and passing them off as Bond Breads?

[abctoo]

Here's a scan of the fronts of three cards and the backs of three others from my packaged Screen Star Subjects set. Do you need to see more? You be the judge.