Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

No sir, the entire industry is crooked, IMHO PERIOD

[drcy]

I've often wondered if collectors (as in some, not all) overtly and all but advertise that they don't care about accurate grades or correct identification of alterations, what would be their argument for items they bought that are wrongly authenticated?

"I want my money back. This card was mislabeled."
"But you collect cards that are mislabeled."

[Touch'EmAll]

This scandal is now not new. There has been plenty of time to sit back, reflect, weigh opinions, digest this whole mess, and come up with a game plan for your own collecting. Personally, I put all buying of significant (to me) cards on hold and doubt I pick up anything new of significant value anytime soon. I still enjoy collecting, however, and have changed to collecting new raw cards of the current players I like - Yelich, Trout, Steph Curry, Giannis, few others. But darn them (PSA), really sucks what they have let through. I blame them more than anyone. They are supposed to be the professionals. They have failed doing their job. If they were on the ball, had caught the majority of alterations, and slabbed accordingly, this hobby wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

[swarmee]

Yep; I made the decision to liquidate my PSA collection (some of which is currently up on eBay; see the BST eBay section for more info).

I never really spent much with PWCC or Probstein, and PSA blocked me for letting people know how crooked they are. I'm really interested in seeing how this all falls out. If the class action depends on the number of cards that passed through my hands or that I graded through PSA, I'll definitely take a piece of that action.

[Snapolit1]

The lasting effect is prices will drop, and when a recession finally hits the value of some cards will come way down.

I don't have the time, or frankly energy, to spend hours of my life sleuthing around. I'll buy cool stuff that is rare and enjoy. Days of chasing nice grade cards is winding down. Just too much risk of getting bit in the arse.

Would you plow real money into a stock if there was real questions about the legitimacy of their financial disclosures? I sure wouldn't.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

The lasting effect is prices will drop, and when a recession finally hits the value of some cards will come way down.

I don't have the time, or frankly energy, to spend hours of my life sleuthing around. I'll buy cool stuff that is rare and enjoy. Days of chasing nice grade cards is winding down. Just too much risk of getting bit in the arse.

Would you plow real money into a stock if there was real questions about the legitimacy of their financial disclosures? I sure wouldn't.

That's likely the best analogy I've heard yet!

[JunkyJoe]

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JunkyJoe

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

Thanks for showing your work....That was always my problem in math class.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by JunkyJoe

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

The Billion Dollar fraud should be calculated on the final sales price, not the value gained by the fraudsters. The true value of the Altered cards is around 20% of the fraudulent sales price. Give or take. So do the same calculation of final sales price times 80%.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

This scandal is now not new. There has been plenty of time to sit back, reflect, weigh opinions, digest this whole mess, and come up with a game plan for your own collecting. Personally, I put all buying of significant (to me) cards on hold and doubt I pick up anything new of significant value anytime soon. I still enjoy collecting, however, and have changed to collecting new raw cards of the current players I like - Yelich, Trout, Steph Curry, Giannis, few others. But darn them (PSA), really sucks what they have let through. I blame them more than anyone. They are supposed to be the professionals. They have failed doing their job. If they were on the ball, had caught the majority of alterations, and slabbed accordingly, this hobby wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Not to a great extent, but I have also dabbled in raw modern singles of current players. I haven't totally stopped buying vintage, but I have changed the way I scratch my baseball card itch. I also have learned to love low grade vintage issues that I am familiar with from reliable sources.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CMIZ5290]

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps,just different holders, and you can imagine who the player might be.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

Its a conspiracy, says all the trimmers and people using relationships to get favors done.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps,just different holders, and you can imagine who the player might be.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

On the plus side, it's a great turn-around time. Who wants to wait 6 months each submission to get that kind of bump?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by tschock

On the plus side, it's a great turn-around time. Who wants to wait 6 months each submission to get that kind of bump?

Ok that’s clever..
thanks for the chuckle.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've often wondered if collectors (as in some, not all) overtly and all but advertise that they don't care about accurate grades or correct identification of alterations, what would be their argument for items they bought that are wrongly authenticated?

"I want my money back. This card was mislabeled."
"But you collect cards that are mislabeled."

Just to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have cared if they "treated" the cards as long as they disclosed it from the beginning. It's the Fraud I'm pissed about.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Just to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have cared if they "treated" the cards as long as they disclosed it from the beginning. It's the Fraud I'm pissed about.

I don't know... I'm actually pretty pissed at anyone who "treats" a card in a manner that the alteration is irreversible and permanent.

A. They've unnecessarily destroyed an important piece of history

B. Even though they had no ill-will or intent to re-sell or deceive, no one lives forever (credit to Oingo Boingo). And when those tainted cards are passed down, there's a good likelihood that they'll end up in numbered slabs (assuming nothing changes as a result of the FBI probe). And then the saga continues... despite the lack of intended fraud.

I'm with Adam in the sense that if Slabs have become too much worry and stress, look for segments of the hobby that are not reliant on TPG. There are many wonderful and fulfilling directions the hobby can take you!

[Fballguy]

For those with Netflix, the documentary Sour Grapes (which tells the story of fine wine fraudster Rudy Kurniawan) is definitely worth a watch. If I closed my eyes I would've thought they were talking about the card situation. Many of the attitudes expressed within sounded as if they were pulled from this thread. It was an uncannily similar situation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those with Netflix, the documentary Sour Grapes (which tells the story of fine wine fraudster Rudy Kurniawan) is definitely worth a watch. If I closed my eyes I would've thought they were talking about the card situation. Many of the attitudes expressed within sounded as if they were pulled from this thread. It was an uncannily similar situation.

I think Larry David had a movie called that as well..

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I think Larry David had a movie called that as well..

Was this the plot?

Rudy Kurniawan, the first person to be tried and convicted in a U.S. federal court for counterfeiting wine, was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Once dubbed Dr. Conti by his fellow collectors for his love of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, the 37-year-old Indonesian, dressed in prison blue and gray sweats, stood with his head bowed and hands clasped as U.S. District Judge Richard Berman pronounced the sentence. Berman also ordered Kurniawan to pay $28.4 million in restitution to seven of his victims

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't know... I'm actually pretty pissed at anyone who "treats" a card in a manner that the alteration is irreversible and permanent.

A. They've unnecessarily destroyed an important piece of history

B. Even though they had no ill-will or intent to re-sell or deceive, no one lives forever (credit to Oingo Boingo). And when those tainted cards are passed down, there's a good likelihood that they'll end up in numbered slabs (assuming nothing changes as a result of the FBI probe). And then the saga continues... despite the lack of intended fraud.

I'm with Adam in the sense that if Slabs have become too much worry and stress, look for segments of the hobby that are not reliant on TPG. There are many wonderful and fulfilling directions the hobby can take you!

The segment of collecting is one I have had for quite a while and going back to full time...it's continuing my castle wall collection of 100 dollar bills.

[sportscardtheory]

Someone should buy a known PWCC/Probstein altered card, crack it, resubmit it to PSA to see if they only allow that garbage through with the big submitters.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Someone should buy a known PWCC/Probstein altered card, crack it, resubmit it to PSA to see if they only allow that garbage through with the big submitters.

Nice idea, and I’m sure that said card would come back graded “A”.

But someone would have to be willing to take a big loss with that “experiment”.