Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by conor912

I’m always amazed at how many people operate on this level. My in-laws are a prime example. They ignore/deflect every hard discussion and convince themselves the world is kittens and rainbows. There are many more people in the world who aren’t strong enough to face reality than are.

It's almost worse than that Conor. If you dont agree with what people are saying, you MUST disagree and immediately are pigeon holed to the extreme other side of the argument. It like politics, which we dont discuss here on the boards.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

It's almost worse than that Conor. If you dont agree with what people are saying, you MUST disagree and immediately are pigeon holed to the extreme other side of the argument. It like politics, which we dont discuss here on the boards.

Spot on, Ted. The middle ground has been hollowed out of everything, it seems, which is why I place a strong premium on those with whom I can engage in civil discourse.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

Other than the part about still collecting PSA cards I'm in nearly the same spot. Magnifier, good measuring tools, knowing what to look for.
It's not that I won't collect a card that PSA has already graded, but I probably won't send them any either. And likely won't be interested in paying a premium either. Not like I did in the past, I have maybe 5-6 PSA graded cards, and most of those came out of packs. (I have an ACU-Grade graded card, so obviously even a sketchy grading slab isn't out of the question at the right price. And yes, it's trimmed.)

I also really doubt I'll send any more to either SGC or Beckett. I used to send a few cards to SGC every couple years. Never say never, but I've seen stuff from both that makes me not want to give them any money.

The stuff that's shown so far is bad, and in some cases, it goes beyond what I can see justifying a claim of mere incompetence.
Sometimes I wonder how bad it would have to be before people abandoned PSA?

As far as this thread goes, I think that a suit against two large resellers and the largest grading company is news that goes beyond the "Hey the blowout guys caught another one"

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

+1

Steve

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by conor912

Spot on, Ted. The middle ground has been hollowed out of everything, it seems, which is why I place a strong premium on those with whom I can engage in civil discourse.

+1

Steve

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

It will be interesting if this impacts CU's stock and how Joe Orlando addresses this if asked in the next quarterly investor's conference call.

I have one question for the lawyers on this board. Just about the entire case stands or falls on the scans of the cards before and after they were allegedly altered. What will the plaintiff's lawyers have to do to make those scans admissible as opposed to being just hearsay?

[cardsnstuff]

Originally Posted by Arsenal83

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later..

I guess they figure what people don't know won't hurt them. From what I've been told "ignorance is no defense"

[Fuddjcal]

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Arsenal83

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later. I guess it's time for an alt account over there.

The moderator is actually pretty cool. This topic was made off-limits months ago with a warning that posts would result in bans. Hence the ban you got. The board is run by PSA, I can understand why they wouldn't want people trashing the company on their own forum.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

I'm not sure the card doctors have any culpability to the card buyers. It's not illegal or fraudulent to trim a card*. My understanding is that you attest that cards are not altered when you submit them but that would seem to create a problem between the TPGs and the card doctors not the doctors and the buyers.

I'm not a lawyer so feel free to correct me, everyone, if the above is incorrect.

* - obviously, it's fraudulent to trim a card and then sell or trade it to someone and not reveal it's trimmed, while representing the card as unaltered

[Republicaninmass]

You heard it here.


Straight from the horses ass



The hobby and the board wont miss the deep insight, and PSA surely won't miss the revenue.

[MULLINS5]

PSA isn't going anywhere and people need to stop trying to change other's minds on graded cards. How people spend their money is their business. Whatever makes one happy - more power to you. But for me, as I've said, no mas. PSA will never get a dime from me and their slabs have no place in my collection. I do like the predicament they're in, so the more threads the merrier.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

PSA isn't going anywhere and people need to stop trying to change other's minds on graded cards. How people spend their money is their business. Whatever makes one happy - more power to you. But for me, as I've said, no mas. PSA will never get a dime from me and their slabs have no place in my collection. I do like the predicament they're in, so the more threads the merrier.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I wonder if they were as thorough with their autographs too?

[benge610]

RE: "I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!"

Thank you Troy for stating. I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Gusturd

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I wonder if they were as thorough with their autographs too?

You have to look through the rain to see the rainbow.

I've seen many PSA/DNA items fakes.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

You have to look through the rain to see the rainbow.

I've seen many PSA/DNA items fakes.

This isn't rain. Rain goes away.

These tainted cards and the doubt they bring will remain in the hobby forever.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Civil things usually occur before arrests. Not saying that this is so but many class actions actually are wanted by defendants. That way they can pay peanuts per person and the claim process is also not that easy when you are part of an approved class plus again, its usually for peanuts...aka 1989 topps/donruss.. Then tons of potential lawsuits are wiped out that were not 'opted out'


I would think if there is any headway in any criminal case, that will aid the lawsuit here and also anyone that 'opts out' from a approved class action lawsuit..

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

All the work is being done by BODA. Your parents may have taught you that yelling and screaming on a bulletin board = standing up for whats right, but they were wrong.

I’d argue your act on this forum does more harm then good. You are loud, divisive, and from what can tell aren’t involved in the solution. And if you have known about this stuff for 20 years, then where the f!@# where you the last 19.5 years to stand up for whats right and wrong, like your mammy and pappy taught you?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by japhi

All the work is being done by BODA. Your parents may have taught you that yelling and screaming on a bulletin board = standing up for whats right, but they wrong.

I’d argue your act on this forum does more harm then good. You are loud, divisive, and from what can tell aren’t involved in the solution. And if you have known about this stuff for 20 years, then where the fuck where you the last 19.5 years to stand up for whats right and wrong, like your mammy and pappy taught you?

+1 BILLION (see what I did there)

How about the name calling and insulting what people collect? Since you say "people don't get your humor" guess what? It aint funny. Plenty of comedians out of work we can hire. If I posted "idiots and dipshits collect t206s" I don't think I'd be able to stick around here very long. Insulting what people collect isn't why the board exists.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Gusturd

This isn't rain. Rain goes away.

These tainted cards and the doubt they bring will remain in the hobby forever.

Yeah, it just don't feel the same. Who to blame, who to blame? I have to blame it on something. Something.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Yeah, it just don't feel the same. Who to blame, who to blame? I have to blame it on something. Something.

Well the people who accepted a fee to authenticate them would probably be a good place to start.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

Well, sure. PSA grades most of the cards, makes most of the money, and thus deserves most of the blame simply by volume of its misses, if nothing else. If you pay for something you don't get, that's a problem. If you pay for a complete miss that people end up getting screwed on, that's a problem That is a no-brainer IMO. That does not exonerate SGC or BVG by any means. I feel the same way about them. They don't get a pass either.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

No sir, the entire industry is crooked, IMHO PERIOD

[drcy]

I've often wondered if collectors (as in some, not all) overtly and all but advertise that they don't care about accurate grades or correct identification of alterations, what would be their argument for items they bought that are wrongly authenticated?

"I want my money back. This card was mislabeled."
"But you collect cards that are mislabeled."

[Touch'EmAll]

This scandal is now not new. There has been plenty of time to sit back, reflect, weigh opinions, digest this whole mess, and come up with a game plan for your own collecting. Personally, I put all buying of significant (to me) cards on hold and doubt I pick up anything new of significant value anytime soon. I still enjoy collecting, however, and have changed to collecting new raw cards of the current players I like - Yelich, Trout, Steph Curry, Giannis, few others. But darn them (PSA), really sucks what they have let through. I blame them more than anyone. They are supposed to be the professionals. They have failed doing their job. If they were on the ball, had caught the majority of alterations, and slabbed accordingly, this hobby wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

[swarmee]

Yep; I made the decision to liquidate my PSA collection (some of which is currently up on eBay; see the BST eBay section for more info).

I never really spent much with PWCC or Probstein, and PSA blocked me for letting people know how crooked they are. I'm really interested in seeing how this all falls out. If the class action depends on the number of cards that passed through my hands or that I graded through PSA, I'll definitely take a piece of that action.

[Snapolit1]

The lasting effect is prices will drop, and when a recession finally hits the value of some cards will come way down.

I don't have the time, or frankly energy, to spend hours of my life sleuthing around. I'll buy cool stuff that is rare and enjoy. Days of chasing nice grade cards is winding down. Just too much risk of getting bit in the arse.

Would you plow real money into a stock if there was real questions about the legitimacy of their financial disclosures? I sure wouldn't.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

The lasting effect is prices will drop, and when a recession finally hits the value of some cards will come way down.

I don't have the time, or frankly energy, to spend hours of my life sleuthing around. I'll buy cool stuff that is rare and enjoy. Days of chasing nice grade cards is winding down. Just too much risk of getting bit in the arse.

Would you plow real money into a stock if there was real questions about the legitimacy of their financial disclosures? I sure wouldn't.

That's likely the best analogy I've heard yet!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've often wondered if collectors (as in some, not all) overtly and all but advertise that they don't care about accurate grades or correct identification of alterations, what would be their argument for items they bought that are wrongly authenticated?

"I want my money back. This card was mislabeled."
"But you collect cards that are mislabeled."

Just to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have cared if they "treated" the cards as long as they disclosed it from the beginning. It's the Fraud I'm pissed about.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benge610

I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

Exactly. I mean, I don't want to break up a fine whining session, but the obvious solution is to stop playing the game. Find a segment of the hobby that is not reliant on TPG and see if it interests you. If so, forget the slabs and all the headaches, and take your business elsewhere. I bought one (1) slabbed card at the National last year and it was slabbed by CSA (remember them?) and was purchased solely to crack out and join my raw card collection because I could see that the card was good. Guess what: I had a great time ignoring the slabs, better than in a lot of other years. Now I am watching thousands of slabbed cards outed as altered and it is just a spectator sport to me. I sit back and enjoy my albums, and spend my time introducing slabs to Mr. Dremel...

"A Card Collection is a magic carpet that takes you away from work-a-day cares to havens of relaxing quietude where you can relive the pleasures and adventures of a past day--brought to life with vivid pictures and prose."--Jefferson Burdick

This is supposed to be fun, not a stressor; if it isn't doing that for you, do yourself a favor and walk away.

[JunkyJoe]

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

This scandal is now not new. There has been plenty of time to sit back, reflect, weigh opinions, digest this whole mess, and come up with a game plan for your own collecting. Personally, I put all buying of significant (to me) cards on hold and doubt I pick up anything new of significant value anytime soon. I still enjoy collecting, however, and have changed to collecting new raw cards of the current players I like - Yelich, Trout, Steph Curry, Giannis, few others. But darn them (PSA), really sucks what they have let through. I blame them more than anyone. They are supposed to be the professionals. They have failed doing their job. If they were on the ball, had caught the majority of alterations, and slabbed accordingly, this hobby wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

Not to a great extent, but I have also dabbled in raw modern singles of current players. I haven't totally stopped buying vintage, but I have changed the way I scratch my baseball card itch. I also have learned to love low grade vintage issues that I am familiar with from reliable sources.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[CMIZ5290]

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps,just different holders, and you can imagine who the player might be.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

Its a conspiracy, says all the trimmers and people using relationships to get favors done.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Just to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have cared if they "treated" the cards as long as they disclosed it from the beginning. It's the Fraud I'm pissed about.

I don't know... I'm actually pretty pissed at anyone who "treats" a card in a manner that the alteration is irreversible and permanent.

A. They've unnecessarily destroyed an important piece of history

B. Even though they had no ill-will or intent to re-sell or deceive, no one lives forever (credit to Oingo Boingo). And when those tainted cards are passed down, there's a good likelihood that they'll end up in numbered slabs (assuming nothing changes as a result of the FBI probe). And then the saga continues... despite the lack of intended fraud.

I'm with Adam in the sense that if Slabs have become too much worry and stress, look for segments of the hobby that are not reliant on TPG. There are many wonderful and fulfilling directions the hobby can take you!

[Fballguy]

For those with Netflix, the documentary Sour Grapes (which tells the story of fine wine fraudster Rudy Kurniawan) is definitely worth a watch. If I closed my eyes I would've thought they were talking about the card situation. Many of the attitudes expressed within sounded as if they were pulled from this thread. It was an uncannily similar situation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

For those with Netflix, the documentary Sour Grapes (which tells the story of fine wine fraudster Rudy Kurniawan) is definitely worth a watch. If I closed my eyes I would've thought they were talking about the card situation. Many of the attitudes expressed within sounded as if they were pulled from this thread. It was an uncannily similar situation.

I think Larry David had a movie called that as well..

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I think Larry David had a movie called that as well..

Was this the plot?

Rudy Kurniawan, the first person to be tried and convicted in a U.S. federal court for counterfeiting wine, was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Once dubbed Dr. Conti by his fellow collectors for his love of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, the 37-year-old Indonesian, dressed in prison blue and gray sweats, stood with his head bowed and hands clasped as U.S. District Judge Richard Berman pronounced the sentence. Berman also ordered Kurniawan to pay $28.4 million in restitution to seven of his victims

[tschock]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

PSA is obviously crooked to some degree, but this board is Pro SGC, they are equally dirty.... I know for a fact of an incident where SGC graded a high profile HOF T206 as an SGC 84 originally several years ago. Then at a show, they promptly bumped it to an 88 holder.....3 months later, the card was bumped to an SGC 92 holder.... Then, 3 weeks later, the card was put in an SGC 96 holder...Same card, three bumps in 90 days. The value on this card of a grade of 7 versus a grade of 9 is tens of thousands of dollars, same card with all of these bumps,just different holders, and you can imagine who the player might be.... This shit is all over the place with grading Companies, and if you think the graders aren't corrupted by bribes, you are living in Fantasyland at Disney World....

On the plus side, it's a great turn-around time. Who wants to wait 6 months each submission to get that kind of bump?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by tschock

On the plus side, it's a great turn-around time. Who wants to wait 6 months each submission to get that kind of bump?

Ok that’s clever..
thanks for the chuckle.

[conor912]

It’s laughable how collectors continue to shake their fist with one hand and write large checks with the other.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by conor912

It’s laughable how collectors continue to shake their fist with one hand and write large checks with the other.

That explains why the handwriting is shaky. I thought there was wave of Parkinson's sweeping through the hobby.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by drcy

That explains why the handwriting is shaky. I thought there was wave of Parkinson's sweeping through the hobby.

No that was how forgers got SGC to authenticate "old" players autographs

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by conor912

It’s laughable how collectors continue to shake their fist with one hand and write large checks with the other.

Worse than laughable...It's a detriment to the hobby.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by JunkyJoe

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

Thanks for showing your work....That was always my problem in math class.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I don't know... I'm actually pretty pissed at anyone who "treats" a card in a manner that the alteration is irreversible and permanent.

A. They've unnecessarily destroyed an important piece of history

B. Even though they had no ill-will or intent to re-sell or deceive, no one lives forever (credit to Oingo Boingo). And when those tainted cards are passed down, there's a good likelihood that they'll end up in numbered slabs (assuming nothing changes as a result of the FBI probe). And then the saga continues... despite the lack of intended fraud.

I'm with Adam in the sense that if Slabs have become too much worry and stress, look for segments of the hobby that are not reliant on TPG. There are many wonderful and fulfilling directions the hobby can take you!

The segment of collecting is one I have had for quite a while and going back to full time...it's continuing my castle wall collection of 100 dollar bills.

[sportscardtheory]

Someone should buy a known PWCC/Probstein altered card, crack it, resubmit it to PSA to see if they only allow that garbage through with the big submitters.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Someone should buy a known PWCC/Probstein altered card, crack it, resubmit it to PSA to see if they only allow that garbage through with the big submitters.

Nice idea, and I’m sure that said card would come back graded “A”.

But someone would have to be willing to take a big loss with that “experiment”.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by JunkyJoe

Here's my best GUESS as to the total dollar amount of this fraud ...

In regards to PSA specifically, they have graded about 30 million cards so far (give or take a couple million). I'm guessing that about 25% of all PSA grading submissions are made by "favored" and/or high-volume dealers. Said dealers surely must be very much aware of how PSA's alleged "professional system" works, right?

So far, the math is: 30,000,000 X 0.25 = 7,500,000 cards.

So, just assuming that 1 out of every 5 cards submitted by those clowns is either A) altered but received a number grade ... or ... B) over-graded by means of favoritism and/or over-valuation by the submitter ...

So then: 7,500,000 X 0.20 = 1.5 million tainted PSA-slabbed cards

From what we've seen, so far, with all the outed cards from the past few months, I'll just guess each tainted card has an average "fake value gain" of around $200. I arrive at this average considering all the outed cards with value gains in the hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the ones that gained only $50 or less.

Also, I would think the average would remain a constant regardless of what % of tainted cards have been outed so far, i.e. "this card here gained $30 in 'fake value' ... that card there gained $400 in 'fake value' ... and that one over there gained $5,000 in 'fake value' ... " .. ... and so on.

So that brings us to the next little bit of math:

1,500,000 X $200 = $300,000,000 in PSA-related fraud ... "alleged" of course

Also, consider that my "$200-average-fake-value-gained-per-card" guess might be conservative. What if that actual average fake value gain per card is closer to $300 ... $400 ... ?? Furthermore, my "25%-of-PSA-grading-submissions" guess may be conservative. What if 30% ... 35% ... __% of PSA graded cards were submitted by those favored/high-volume dealers???

Then, if we add in the suspected fraud involving SGC slabbed cards, and to a lesser extent (IMO) the ones involving BGS/BVG ... there could be what, 1/3 added to the $ fraud total?

So how about $400,000,000, as a conservative estimate?

But wait, what about all the raw cards that have been inflated by shill bidding involving various shady individuals? How much does that add to the total, potentially?

So maybe that "billion dollar" number isn't so ridiculous after all, hmm?

The Billion Dollar fraud should be calculated on the final sales price, not the value gained by the fraudsters. The true value of the Altered cards is around 20% of the fraudulent sales price. Give or take. So do the same calculation of final sales price times 80%.