Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[steve B]

Originally Posted by trambo

+1 to that one! No doubt there's something bad going on. Also no doubt it's been going on forever and isn't limited to TPG's not catching everything they should! People have been altering cards for a very long time. Not condoning it. Just saying it's been a thing.

Would love to see one of the people you mention above actually post something positive about the hobby for a change. After all, collecting should be fun! Plus it may just keep people posting on Net54! Wouldn't that be novel!

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by steve B

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

Because posting here has such a profound effect

[conor912]

Originally Posted by steve B

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

I’m always amazed at how many people operate on this level. My in-laws are a prime example. They ignore/deflect every hard discussion and convince themselves the world is kittens and rainbows. There are many more people in the world who aren’t strong enough to face reality than are.

[Arsenal83]

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later. I guess it's time for an alt account over there.

[cardsnstuff]

Originally Posted by Arsenal83

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later..

I guess they figure what people don't know won't hurt them. From what I've been told "ignorance is no defense"

[Fuddjcal]

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

All the work is being done by BODA. Your parents may have taught you that yelling and screaming on a bulletin board = standing up for whats right, but they were wrong.

I’d argue your act on this forum does more harm then good. You are loud, divisive, and from what can tell aren’t involved in the solution. And if you have known about this stuff for 20 years, then where the f!@# where you the last 19.5 years to stand up for whats right and wrong, like your mammy and pappy taught you?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by japhi

All the work is being done by BODA. Your parents may have taught you that yelling and screaming on a bulletin board = standing up for whats right, but they wrong.

I’d argue your act on this forum does more harm then good. You are loud, divisive, and from what can tell aren’t involved in the solution. And if you have known about this stuff for 20 years, then where the fuck where you the last 19.5 years to stand up for whats right and wrong, like your mammy and pappy taught you?

+1 BILLION (see what I did there)

How about the name calling and insulting what people collect? Since you say "people don't get your humor" guess what? It aint funny. Plenty of comedians out of work we can hire. If I posted "idiots and dipshits collect t206s" I don't think I'd be able to stick around here very long. Insulting what people collect isn't why the board exists.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Frankly, You all can give me shit for speaking my mind and what I firmly believe is a billion dollar fraud going back 20 years. That is not joke. I really don't give a shit about you nay sayers that just want to keep the PSA gravy train rolling. I think you are short sighted and don't stand up for what you believe is right. Either that or you have no moral compass....or perhaps you are too pigheaded or just a complete asshole that only cares about yourself?

I would rather have my old sagging bat winged balls sliced off than to support a company that rips people off consistently and doesn't give 2 shits about their customers.

My parents taught me to stand up for right and wrong and that's what I'm going to do and continue to do until the day I die. I am not part of the problem. I am trying to get the word out and help just 1 person.

If you can't stop associating with criminals to enjoy your hobby or to make money, that's on you. You imbeciles know who you are.

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

Well, sure. PSA grades most of the cards, makes most of the money, and thus deserves most of the blame simply by volume of its misses, if nothing else. If you pay for something you don't get, that's a problem. If you pay for a complete miss that people end up getting screwed on, that's a problem That is a no-brainer IMO. That does not exonerate SGC or BVG by any means. I feel the same way about them. They don't get a pass either.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

And you think SGC is completely innocent? PLEASE....After PSA and SGC, who else do we need to blame? Beckett?

No sir, the entire industry is crooked, IMHO PERIOD

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Arsenal83

I posted this on the Collector's Universe forum and the idiot moderator banned me 2 minutes later. I guess it's time for an alt account over there.

The moderator is actually pretty cool. This topic was made off-limits months ago with a warning that posts would result in bans. Hence the ban you got. The board is run by PSA, I can understand why they wouldn't want people trashing the company on their own forum.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by conor912

I’m always amazed at how many people operate on this level. My in-laws are a prime example. They ignore/deflect every hard discussion and convince themselves the world is kittens and rainbows. There are many more people in the world who aren’t strong enough to face reality than are.

It's almost worse than that Conor. If you dont agree with what people are saying, you MUST disagree and immediately are pigeon holed to the extreme other side of the argument. It like politics, which we dont discuss here on the boards.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

It's almost worse than that Conor. If you dont agree with what people are saying, you MUST disagree and immediately are pigeon holed to the extreme other side of the argument. It like politics, which we dont discuss here on the boards.

Spot on, Ted. The middle ground has been hollowed out of everything, it seems, which is why I place a strong premium on those with whom I can engage in civil discourse.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by conor912

Spot on, Ted. The middle ground has been hollowed out of everything, it seems, which is why I place a strong premium on those with whom I can engage in civil discourse.

+1

Steve

[trambo]

Originally Posted by steve B

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

[HRBAKER]

Sure it has always gone on. The difference now is that the money and stakes are much higher and the folks that have marketed us their protection services have proven to be better marketers than anything else.

[ZR1]

Personally I dont like how PSA grades cards. I dont see how a 60/40 centering gets a 10 Gem Mint! I sent them a Jordan rookie, pulled right from the pack, perfectly centered, sharp corners, etc. I get a 8. Im tempted to break out of case and send to SGC, just because. But Ive seen quite a few 60/40 centered Jordan rookies graded Gem Mint! Makes no sense to me. In my opinion, if you're a high volume card submitter, and your borderline of the better grade, you're getting the better grade.
As for the card altering, this stuff has been going on for many years. Im sure some graders know the cards are altered and trimmed and grade them anyways, put them in smaller cases. All one has to do is pull out a tape measure.
Makes the hobby not fun like it used to be. I personally wont buy any older high grade cards anymore, for the simple fact, it could be altered. Who wants to spend thousands, if not tens of thousands on a card, just to find out later on, it was altered. Id be pissed just like anyone else.

[ALR-bishop]

Opinions and names seem to go better together

[steve B]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

Other than the part about still collecting PSA cards I'm in nearly the same spot. Magnifier, good measuring tools, knowing what to look for.
It's not that I won't collect a card that PSA has already graded, but I probably won't send them any either. And likely won't be interested in paying a premium either. Not like I did in the past, I have maybe 5-6 PSA graded cards, and most of those came out of packs. (I have an ACU-Grade graded card, so obviously even a sketchy grading slab isn't out of the question at the right price. And yes, it's trimmed.)

I also really doubt I'll send any more to either SGC or Beckett. I used to send a few cards to SGC every couple years. Never say never, but I've seen stuff from both that makes me not want to give them any money.

The stuff that's shown so far is bad, and in some cases, it goes beyond what I can see justifying a claim of mere incompetence.
Sometimes I wonder how bad it would have to be before people abandoned PSA?

As far as this thread goes, I think that a suit against two large resellers and the largest grading company is news that goes beyond the "Hey the blowout guys caught another one"

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

It will be interesting if this impacts CU's stock and how Joe Orlando addresses this if asked in the next quarterly investor's conference call.

I have one question for the lawyers on this board. Just about the entire case stands or falls on the scans of the cards before and after they were allegedly altered. What will the plaintiff's lawyers have to do to make those scans admissible as opposed to being just hearsay?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

I'm not sure the card doctors have any culpability to the card buyers. It's not illegal or fraudulent to trim a card*. My understanding is that you attest that cards are not altered when you submit them but that would seem to create a problem between the TPGs and the card doctors not the doctors and the buyers.

I'm not a lawyer so feel free to correct me, everyone, if the above is incorrect.

* - obviously, it's fraudulent to trim a card and then sell or trade it to someone and not reveal it's trimmed, while representing the card as unaltered

[Republicaninmass]

You heard it here.


Straight from the horses ass



The hobby and the board wont miss the deep insight, and PSA surely won't miss the revenue.

[MULLINS5]

PSA isn't going anywhere and people need to stop trying to change other's minds on graded cards. How people spend their money is their business. Whatever makes one happy - more power to you. But for me, as I've said, no mas. PSA will never get a dime from me and their slabs have no place in my collection. I do like the predicament they're in, so the more threads the merrier.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

+1

Steve

[benge610]

RE: "I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!"

Thank you Troy for stating. I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benge610

I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

Exactly. I mean, I don't want to break up a fine whining session, but the obvious solution is to stop playing the game. Find a segment of the hobby that is not reliant on TPG and see if it interests you. If so, forget the slabs and all the headaches, and take your business elsewhere. I bought one (1) slabbed card at the National last year and it was slabbed by CSA (remember them?) and was purchased solely to crack out and join my raw card collection because I could see that the card was good. Guess what: I had a great time ignoring the slabs, better than in a lot of other years. Now I am watching thousands of slabbed cards outed as altered and it is just a spectator sport to me. I sit back and enjoy my albums, and spend my time introducing slabs to Mr. Dremel...

"A Card Collection is a magic carpet that takes you away from work-a-day cares to havens of relaxing quietude where you can relive the pleasures and adventures of a past day--brought to life with vivid pictures and prose."--Jefferson Burdick

This is supposed to be fun, not a stressor; if it isn't doing that for you, do yourself a favor and walk away.