Jeter - minus 1? WTF??

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I owe cardsagain and Ben an apology for the way I responded to their posts. There was no need for profanity. I'm not going to redact what I posted-I'll leave that to Leon, if he feels doing so is warranted.

But you know what, guys? Again, if you don't like what I post, or the length of my posts annoys you, there's an ignore feature on the forum for a reason. I suggest you use it. Badmouthing someone behind their back is incredibly low class. I have a right to express my opinion, respectfully, and you can either agree with what I have to say, and respond in kind, disagree with what I have to say, and provide evidence as to why you disagree with me, or you can say nothing.

Yes, I tend to write a lot. I put a lot of thought into my posts because, honestly, I see a lot of this kind of talk elsewhere, and statements are presented as fact, and there's no supporting evidence. None. We throw things out there quite casually, and there's little to no truth to much of it. If the sheer length of my carefully thought out posts offends you, ignore it, and move on.

I have to find ways to try and fill my time. If my analysis isn't appreciated, there are plenty of other threads about rampant fraud, and the crooks in the hobby to hold your attention. Plenty of talk about the latest scandal in baseball ("sign stealing"), or football ("deflated balls, taping practices"), etc etc.

You keep using words that don't apply like "annoyed", "offended", and so on, but we were just poking a little fun at the laborious nature of your posts (and the pompous nature with which that omniscience is often delivered.) This is just an internet forum; most people don't share your need to get so involved with every detail about Larry Walker and Derek Jeter being presented and considered down to the nth degree. A random online person's misconceptions about such topics really aren't that big of a deal.

[AndrewJerome]

Hi Bill,

I enjoy your analysis. Just curious where you'd put Jeter in your all time rankings of just shortstops.

I'd have

1) Wagner
2) Arod
3) Probably Jeter. Close call between Ripken, Jeter, Banks, and Yount

Andrew

[CMIZ5290]

Jeter was incredible, slam dunk first ballot HOF....As far as 100% of the vote goes, I would lean more towards Ken Griffey Jr.....In actuality they both should be, just saying....

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by AndrewJerome

Hi Bill,

I enjoy your analysis. Just curious where you'd put Jeter in your all time rankings of just shortstops.

I'd have

1) Wagner
2) Arod
3) Probably Jeter. Close call between Ripken, Jeter, Banks, and Yount

Andrew

Andrew I know you weren’t asking me but I like the idea.

1. Wagner
2. Arod
3. Ripken
4. Arky Vaughan (could have been higher if he didn’t lose several seasons because he hated Leo Durocher)
5. Jeter-Banks-yount group (pretty similar overall in my opinion, each with different strengths and weaknesses)
6. The next tier of guys like Ozzie Smith, Barry Larkin, Joe Cronin, etc

Also keep in mind Arod and Yount both played about half their games at other positions so you could make an argument that they shouldn’t be on the list at all when speaking of purely shortstops.

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice list, Rhett. I saw the whole careers of Ozzie Smith and Derek Jeter, and I have Smith slightly ahead, as does this "JAWS" list of the best of all time. Don't ask me to explain this advanced stat, but it seems to churn out the right names....some notables: 8th Smith, 10th Dahlen, 12th Jeter, 18th Glasscock, 24th Joe Tinker, 4th George Davis...

Here are a few Pebbly Jack cards. I'd like to see him in the HOF.

www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

[Bigdaddy]

Bill, you simply threw out a challenge - "Prove me wrong" and I took up the challenge, though not with the thoroughness that you tend to reply with.

I think we probably both rate Jeter about the same - first ballot HOF, but not in the rare air of Mays, Ruth, Cobb, etc. I might rate him a tad higher, but that's only because of seeing him so much on TV (especially in the fall), in person and because he was my son's favorite player. We made many trips to Baltimore to see the Yankees over the years.

And in response to the other question about all-time shortstops and especially Arod, I believe he might have been THE BEST all-time if he hadn't juiced. The PEDs gave him some more power, but along with the bulk he picked up he lost his range, quickness and flexibility that are required to play SS. Made him a great 3rd baseman, where you only need two steps to either side, but diminished his skills at short.

Overall, my list today is:

1. Wagner
2. Ripken
3. Jeter/Ozzie
5. Yount/Arod (because of time spent elsewhere on the diamond)
6. Banks?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Bill, you simply threw out a challenge - "Prove me wrong" and I took up the challenge, though not with the thoroughness that you tend to reply with.

I think we probably both rate Jeter about the same - first ballot HOF, but not in the rare air of Mays, Ruth, Cobb, etc. I might rate him a tad higher, but that's only because of seeing him so much on TV (especially in the fall), in person and because he was my son's favorite player. We made many trips to Baltimore to see the Yankees over the years.

And in response to the other question about all-time shortstops and especially Arod, I believe he might have been THE BEST all-time if he hadn't juiced. The PEDs gave him some more power, but along with the bulk he picked up he lost his range, quickness and flexibility that are required to play SS. Made him a great 3rd baseman, where you only need two steps to either side, but diminished his skills at short.

Overall, my list today is:

1. Wagner
2. Ripken
3. Jeter/Ozzie
5. Yount/Arod (because of time spent elsewhere on the diamond)
6. Banks?

Even before (and after) he juiced, ARod was a better SS than Jeter. By far. Jeter should have moved, not ARod. ARod was sooooo much a better SS than Jeter was that it isn't even funny. FAR more range, more glove, more everything. Yet he moved. Jeter didn't. I always viewed that as selfish.

I don't disagree that Jeter is a first ballot HOFer, whatever that means. He was offensively, a consistent and productive hitter, particularly in the clutch situations. Not a doubt. I agree with Bill's analysis in that regard. But he is still not nearly the best HOFer as a SS ever. That argument literally can't be made with a straight face except, maybe, by a diehard Yankee fan. That is my problem with that silly 100% argument. It doesn't matter any more than if you are elected on the 1st or last ballot. If you are in, you are in. You are, by definition, a 100% HOFer. At that point WTF does it matter what your vote percentage is?