Let's welcome Charlie Barokas to the Billion Dollar Fraud!

[drcy]

One trillion

[Tabe]

Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Start with the Gretzky Wagner card - that card has been sold and re-sold multiple times for millions of dollars. That's a pretty good head start towards a billion.

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

Really good point and a different angle to consider.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

When prices for doctored cards with high grades are increasing, the people who bought and sold them, generally, are not suffering financial loss. The full impact of the fraud won't be felt unless/until the value of the doctored/overgraded cards collapse.

A fair point. Is victimless fraud still fraud? I would say yes.

At the very least, the current owner is a victim even if he doesn't consider himself such.

[Touch'EmAll]

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

[Republicaninmass]

Preferential

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

Phraudulent.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Pardon me, but PSA - what does the "P" stand for ?

Professional Sports Authenticator.

[egbeachley]

You are not the only one who hasn’t heard the term waterfront. But then again I d only been collecting for 1/2 my life and on this Board for over 10 years.

It may have to do with soaking a card. But context seems off. Certainly not a commonly used term.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A fair point. Is victimless fraud still fraud? I would say yes.

At the very least, the current owner is a victim even if he doesn't consider himself such.

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

Yet even in this example the profit made is almost certainly going to be less than what it would have been without the fraud being exposed.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Yet even in this example the profit made is almost certainly going to be less than what it would have been without the fraud being exposed.

I'll bet in the vast majority of cases, the fraud has not been exposed to the people buying these cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If someone buys a doctored card as an investment, doesn't know it is doctored, and sells it for a tidy profit, he/she is not a victim. If the person who buys it is happy with the card and also sells it for a profit, they are not a victim. There is definitely potential for some future owner of the card to become a victim, but that won't occur unless and until the doctoring of that card (asset) causes its market value to drop.

If I buy a nice looking T205 that looks a little narrow and may be trimmed, but I am happy with the card at the price I pay for it, I am also not a victim. This has, in fact, happened to me fairly recently.

The victimization of America................ To be a victim one must actually have something negative happen to them.

To me this is a ridiculous way of looking at it.
As long as everyone profits off something that isn't as it's claimed, it's ok?

So by extension if I get a counterfeit 20, and pass it along that's ok too.
If I paint some rocks with gold paint, and say they're gold nuggets it's fine as long as the buyer can find another sucker?

Rubbish!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

To me this is a ridiculous way of looking at it.
As long as everyone profits off something that isn't as it's claimed, it's ok?

So by extension if I get a counterfeit 20, and pass it along that's ok too.
If I paint some rocks with gold paint, and say they're gold nuggets it's fine as long as the buyer can find another sucker?

Rubbish!

No, fraud isn't okay. I didn't say it was (obviously.)

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The folks who bought that card then sold it for a profit didn't suffer any loss from the trim job.

How can you know that they didn't lose out on more profit? Every educated collector knows the "trim" story.

Just because it was sold for a profit doesn't mean they "didn't suffer any loss from the trim job".