Name that card...T213-2 sheet layout and distribution by year

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's another interesting card of Elberfeld of the Brooklyn Robins. He last played for them in 1914 and went to Chattanooga in 1915 and 1916, for which he also has a card. The card on top is Hoblitzell Boston Amer. I could not find him on their roster for any year. Both these cards are 1914 cards because of Elberfeld's leaving Brooklyn after the 1914 season.

Hoblitzell is shown in baseball reference to have 1000 plate appearences in 1914 for Toronto, Cincy, and Boston Nats, which seems incorrect. He played for Braves for 1915 and 1916 as well.

Anyone else feel free to chime in with miscut T213, questions or answers. Rob

[tedzan]

Hi Rob

Here's some interesting trivia regarding Ed Summers. His MLB career ended with Detroit in 1912.

Shown here is a 1914 COUPON (T213-2) card depicting Summers with the Brooklyn Tip Tops of the Federal League.

Definitely a No-No......Summers never pitched for this Brooklyn team.

However, Rudy Sommers was a pitcher for the Brooklyn Tip Tops in 1914. My guess is that American Lithographic mistook Summers for Sommers ? ?

What's your guess ?


........................……………. 1910 ........................................…………………. 1910 .......................................... 1910 ..……………………………………... 1914



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TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's another miscut of what I call the "Donlin Tribute" or "Donlin Stats" card. He has a regular 1914 issue of his last year with the Giants. His "New York" card which is harder to find. I believe the stats or tribute card to be issued after he retired and as Lew Lipset points out in his catalog, Donlin hit .300 or better for more than 7 seasons and was one of the best players not in the HOF.

This card does not tell us much about the year of distribution, because Rucker played for the Robins in 1914, 1915, and 1916, so his card on top could be from any of those...

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice one, Ted. I think the issuers may have used the T206 card of Ed to depict Rudy Sommers, so actually it should be, or could be T213-2 Summers (Sommers, Rudy). I think they did the same with Larry Chappelle with Cleveland. Maybe on purpose, or maybe an error. I need to look at the set some more and come up with other error cards. Rob

[nolemmings]

There are several players in T213-2 that are captioned for teams on which they did not play during 1914-1916. Looking at my spreadsheet, I see the following that fall in this group:
Bridwell-Nashville
Campbell, St. Louis Nat.
Geyer- St. Louis Nat.
Hoblitzell, Bos N.
Hummel, Brooklyn Fed
Murray, KC
Quinn, Buffalo Fed
Sweeney, Bill-- Boston AL (but went to Red Sox Spring training in 1915)
Sweeney, Jeff– Richmond (unknown Sweeney played for Richmond 1915) and
Warhop, St. Louis Nat.

Also, in addition to the Rudy Sommers noted, the Camnitz, Savannah card is probably Harry Camnitz, who pitched there in 1915, Hoffman Peoria is likely Izzy Hoffman, player/mgr there in 1915, and the Tim Jordan Fort Worth card is meant to cover a different player by that name who pitched there in 1914-1915.

[tedzan]

Hey Rob,

Is there a T213-2 Cincinnati version of Chase ?


……………………………. 1914 ..………...…………………………………………………………….. 1913 ………………………………………………... 1919 (T213-3)


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TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted, I have not seen a Chase Cincy card. I suppose one could be possible. I have the 6 from the checklist...The three poses, Trophy, Port, and Throw each for Chicago and Buffalo.

Todd, thanks very much for that list. I looked into the team changes a few years ago, but I've lost my notes and need to re-learn much about the set.

I spent some time researching the career of Ed Sweeney. Sweeney has a lot of cards in the sets I collect. For some reason, the Hobby calls him "Jeff", not to be confused with Boston's Bill. The reference sites call him "Ed" with no mention of "Jeff" as a nickname.

Sweeney played from 1909-1915 for the Yankees/Highlanders. He played for the Pirates in 1919. Toledo in 1916. Could he have also played for the Richmond Climbers for 31 games hitting .181 and is the anonymous "Sweeney" on the roster?

Did the issuers use 5 year old card images for different players with similar names?
Also, on your list you have "Hoblitzell Boston Nat" did you mean Boston Amer., ot am I getting them confused? Rob

[RCMcKenzie]

Here is Ed Sweeney's T205 card. No mention of him being called "Jeff".

edit to add an old thread on this topic. A book called The Yankee encyclopedia refers to him as "Jeff"

www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=91661

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Here's another interesting card of Elberfeld of the Brooklyn Robins. He last played for them in 1914 and went to Chattanooga in 1915 and 1916, for which he also has a card. The card on top is Hoblitzell Boston Amer. I could not find him on their roster for any year. Both these cards are 1914 cards because of Elberfeld's leaving Brooklyn after the 1914 season.

Hoblitzell is shown in baseball reference to have 1000 plate appearences in 1914 for Toronto, Cincy, and Boston Nats, which seems incorrect. He played for Braves for 1915 and 1916 as well.

Anyone else feel free to chime in with miscut T213, questions or answers. Rob

I just re-read this post, and notice a couple of things. Rob, Dick Hoblitzell played for the Red Sox but never for Boston N.L.,so there is a mistake. However and interestingly (to me any anyway), Hoblitzell was not acquired by Boston from Cinci until July 16, 1914, so if he is appearing on an Elberfeld card with Brooklyn, who only played there in 1914, either there was a late printing in 1914 or the miscut card was printed before Elberfeld joined Chattanooga in April 1915. I'm guessing the former, since Elberfeld was released by Brooklyn well before he signed with Chattanooga. However, since Hoblitzell also has a t213-2 card with the Reds, that would mean there are two different printings from 1914.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

there are two different printings from 1914.

Thanks for all the info on Murray. Very interesting stuff. It makes set collecting more fun when I learn about the careers of the players.

In general, and anecdotally, from collecting the set, 1914 cards are the most commonly found. For example, if you find a T213-2 Frank Chance, it will most likely be his New York Portrait. For some reason, his New York batting card is as hard to find, as his 1916 LA Port & Batting cards.

I think you are right that 1914 was the year that they printed the most cards. I know there are a few 1914 only cards that are tough, I'll see if I can find some examples, likely not printed as often as say, Cobb Red Port. I would not be surprised to see a miscut Ty Cobb, that shows both cards as Cobb. I'll keep looking for miscut T213-2's.

Also, Ted, I have been waiting for that Demmitt to go up in price for many years, but the Polar Bear back keeps going way up in price. Rob

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

.......... Also, Ted, I have been waiting for that Demmitt to go up in price for many years, but the Polar Bear back keeps going way up in price. Rob

This is very true, Rob. A nice T213-2 Demmitt currently sells for only $100 - 200. While the T206 Demmitt (St Louis) sells for several $1000's.


This T213-2 Demmitt was acquired many years ago for $40.







This T206 Demmitt was acquired back in the early 1990's for $250

This T206 Demmitt was acquired several years ago for about $950.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Leon]

Great thread and research (especially Todd).
Every now and then it's great to see some collaboration on team and other variations for our pre war sets. The only thing I can add is a pic of the latter of the series, in "collector" shape.

[RCMcKenzie]

I thought I would revive this thread to talk about Hooks Wiltse, as he has 6 cards in the T213-2 set, 3 portraits and 3 pitching. His easiest to find are his 1914 NY Giants cards, next are his 1915 Jersey City cards, and as Rick pointed out in another thread, his Brooklyn cards are the most difficult to find. I have 5/6, missing the Brooklyn portrait.

What's interesting about the Wiltse cards, is that T213-2 clearly had at least 2 print runs in 1915. This sabr bio shows that Wiltse started the season with Jersey City, and later in the season moved to Brooklyn.

www.sabr.org/bioproj/person/ce9bc9aa

[RCMcKenzie]

A quick follow-up about Hal Chase. Chase also has 6 cards in the set, Portrait, Trophy, and Throwing for the White Sox and Buffalo. His Chicago cards are a little more difficult to find, but not by much. What's interesting about this, is that it suggests that they produced more cards in 1914, than 1915 and 1916. This bio includes the story of Chase playing part of 1914 with Chicago, before moving to Buffalo in 1914-1915. As Ted pointed out earlier in the thread, Chase should have T213-2's from 1916 showing him on Cincy, but none are known.

www.halchase.com/biography/

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I thought I would revive this thread to talk about Hooks Wiltse, as he has 6 cards in the T213-2 set, 3 portraits and 3 pitching. His easiest to find are his 1914 NY Giants cards, next are his 1915 Jersey City cards, and as Rick pointed out in another thread, his Brooklyn cards are the most difficult to find. I have 5/6, missing the Brooklyn portrait.

What's interesting about the Wiltse cards, is that T213-2 clearly had at least 2 print runs in 1915. This sabr bio shows that Wiltse started the season with Jersey City, and later in the season moved to Brooklyn.

www.sabr.org/bioproj/person/ce9bc9aa

Rob.....very interesting....great research.

Regarding the Wiltse (pitching) card, here are two bits of information with respect to its T206 version that may interest you.

1st.....Wiltse's T206 card is in the group of AB 460/UZIT "twins" that were issued at the very tail-end of the T206 production cycle at American
Lithographic (circa Feb-March 1911). So, given here is a starting timeline for this card prior to its T213-2 issue dates.
This date is evident in an ATC ledger to this effect. Refer to Post #97.. https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=237816&page=2

2nd..Wiltse's T206 card has a trivial printing omission. In the caption, the DOT after the "Y" in "N. Y." is missing (no other T206 has this error).



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TED Z

T206 Reference
.