Jackie Robinson/Willie Mays

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Mark,

Willie Mays' behavior off the field has nothing to do with the value (or future value) of his cards.

I disagree.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

I disagree.

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

[packs]

Agree it will always be Jackie. I'm sorry to all the Mays fans but I don't get the impression anyone really cares about him. Mike Trout is called the next Mickey Mantle, not the next Willie Mays. Even Jasson Dominguez is being compared to Mickey Mantle, not Willie Mays. There isn't a Willie Mays award. Being that Mays wasn't Robinson in a historical sense, it's only a matter of time before he fades into HOFer obscurity.

Some people might suggest race has something to do with this. But I offer personality instead. Hank Aaron is revered beyond reverence. Willie is a shut in nobody ever sees anywhere and it's probably because he's not invited.

[ALBB]

Wow,
I would think it would be very difficult to be a card collector..and refuse to collect any cards of Mays

I dont think Ive ever had a thought like that cross my mind - for ex- working on a 60 F set...but Cobb was a racist..so I dont want his card in my set , or Steve Carlton refused to sign for me...so that card is missing from my 71T set ??

[packs]

There's been a lot of revisionist history done lately about Cobb's actual life. If you do some research on him you'll find Ty Cobb's thoughts on African Americans in baseball:

"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”

That quote is from 1952.

You'll also find that Ty Cobb established the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation which has been and still is a tremendous financial resource for African American students in Georgia.

[ALBB]

Your right

[robkas68]

I tend to go with the iconic argument. Yes, I’m sure race could be a small factor and his personality could be a small factor, but there are plenty players that suffer from those challenges. Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, Clemente is the symbol of the Latino community and died tragically. Mantle was the best player on the most iconic team in professional sports. Mantle was great, but much like DiMaggio or Jeter, the Yankee factor magnified it.

Mays by almost any measure was one of the dozen greatest players of all time. He just didn’t have the headline. No “61” or “715”, only one championship, etc. Sort of gets overlooked like Musial.

[Mark70Z]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

Brian,

Thanks; glad someone else understands and is able to put it into words far better than I ever could.

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

I wanted to clarify my on the surface outrageous example of refusing what would normally be a very desirable Willie Mays baseball card. I don't collect regular issue Topps baseball sets, and have not for over 50 years. As a tween and teen, when I was interested in collecting the entire 598 - 609 card Topps set, you better believe I wanted Willie Mays. Back then, I liked Willie. He wasn't my favorite player in say, 1967; my favorite player in those years was Ernie Banks. I lived in the suburbs of Chicago, and rooted for the Cubs and Sox. As a kid collecting Topps, it was always a thrill to get Willie Mays's card.

It wasn't until the mid-to-late 1980s, when I'd re-entered the adult hobby, that I began to have intense negative feelings towards Say Hey. I'd begun subscribing to SPORTS COLLECTORS DIGEST. At this time it was the largest and most significant newspaper / magazine in the hobby. Tons of ads, auctions, and superb feature articles on players of the past. Once in a blue moon, they ran a feature on my favorite kind of cards---post-war regional / food issues.

At this time, SCD ran a feature written by a free-lance photographer and his miserable experience trying to interview Willie Mays. Once Mays ascertained that the fellow was a free-lance writer, the meeting went deep south. Willie went out of his way to be rude, caustic, antagonistic, and thoroughly uncooperative. At this same time, he was polite and helpful to a regular employed beat reporter.

Being a some-time writer, I was bewildered and shocked at how Willie could be so willing to work with the beat reporter, but then verbally, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically criticize the free-lance writer.

Now, the lambasted writer did not tear into Willie Mays, and make pronouncements about his character, let alone race. Not at all.

He simply wrote his recollections and Willie's caustic responses to him (due to the live recorder he had going for the hoped for interview). He simply conveyed the sequence of events of his sad escapade, and Willie's words to him. The writer expressed his feelings of bewildered sadness and hurt, but again, did not tear into Willie as a man.

He didn't need to.

In the ensuing years, I began seeing occasional reports of the foul behavior of Mr. Mays on the autograph show circuit. A full 90% of the comments on Willie were negative. Willie Mays really "tried hard" to earn himself a nasty reputation on the show circuit, it seemed. Guys, gals, I know there are people who are rude, demanding autograph seekers. However, at the many shows Willie appeared, with the promoters charging what would be a day's wage or more for those paying to meet Say Hey and get his autograph, I'm rather certain the autograph seeker would be on his best behavior. Remember this, FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, THEY ADORED WILLIE AS KIDS, TEENS, AND YOUNG ADULTS. HE WAS THEIR HERO, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THEIR HEROES.

Then, to have a surly Willie Mays treat them so disgracefully and shamefully, it is a wonder one them didn't ....... I better not say it. None of us would like to read it or actually do it.

After reading that feature in SCD, I wound up selling off most of my best Willie Mays cards. The only one I regretted parting with was my 1960 Topps. I rather like that issue and was working towards completing it in the mid-1970s. Besides, Willie looks great on his 1960 Topps. So, I guess I haven't tried to complete a set for over 30 years! As for the other cards, no, I have never missed them.

I now turn to the matter of whether the foul behavior of Willie Mays has impacted the values of his cards today.

I submit to youse guys and gals two glaring examples.

First, on April 14, 2019, esteemed LOVE OF THE GAME auctions offered a 1967 Coca-Cola premium of Willie Mays, graded no less than PSA 10 GEM MINT. This 1 of 1 rarity would normally be a prized piece in a Mays card collection. However, the expression of Willie on the card is most disappointing. I don't know what happened, of course, but it honestly looks as though the photographer told Willie to say "cheese", and instead he said "shit". The facial expressions of other significant players look terrific; I recall Clemente, Rose, Mantle, Banks, Billy Williams, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Henry Aaron all look endearing. These beautiful cards would bring great joy to a recipient, especially one who'd drank Coke after Coke to collect the caps needed to redeem them for the set of 12 premium pictures of his local team. But Willie Mays, the biggest prize of the 12 Giants, wears a face that does look like sh**. Pity. OK, so back to LOTG's auction of the card. It got 11 bids, which amounted to only $1353, including the buyer's premium. I mean, the "dime" failed miserably to get a commensurate price.

Second, on April 6, 2019, the renown Memory Lane auction house hammered the most significant Willie Mays regional / food card that could hit the market: the 1954 Stahl-Meyer Franks Willie Mays in spectacular PSA 9 MINT condition. I shan't convey my feelings for the glorious post-war regional / food issues, and what I have given the hobby to prove it. I'll let the facts speak for themselves, and emphasize this was a major auction house grandstanding the piece. That amazing profound rarity garnered all of 23 bids, and sold for just $23,376. I don't remember what the PSA price guide gauged the value prior to the auction. I should think the value would have been ready to skyrocket, for the opportunity to attain the 1 of 1 MINT specimen comes very rarely, obviously. Alas, no, and PSA's price guide listing for the card shows the negative red numbers.

No more really needs to be said. I don't enjoy writing this; I'd rather remember him as a kid when I got Willie's 1962 Topps, or his 1966 Topps. Of course, I remember as a kid getting his 1961 Topps............

---Brian Powell