Hall of Fame voting and WWII

[packs]

If you say so. I can think of a million pitchers with 4 good seasons. Even Chesbro's Wikipedia includes notes about how dubious his selection was and Bill James himself says he's only in for his 1904 season.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

If you say so. I can think of a million pitchers with 4 good seasons. Even Chesbro's Wikipedia includes notes about how dubious his selection was and Bill James himself says he's only in for his 1904 season.

As I just said above, he only had 4 excellent seasons and I think he is among the worst in the Hall of Fame. I agree with this. I would not vote for Chesbro either.

The claim that he only had 1 hall of fame level season and is in only for this season is pretty easily disproven by looking at his annual statistics.

[packs]

So he's in the HOF for having 4 excellent seasons and not the 41 wins? I highly doubt that. There are a lot of pitchers with 4 excellent seasons.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

So he's in the HOF for having 4 excellent seasons and not the 41 wins? I highly doubt that. There are a lot of pitchers with 4 excellent seasons.

If you remove a player best season, the bottom quarter of the hall probably falls out. However, if they only had that 1 season at a high level, none of them would be in either. I would love to hear a single, solitary example of a player who had ONE hall of fame level season. I will happily say you are right if even just one example can be shown.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

If you remove a player best season, the bottom quarter of the hall probably falls out. However, if they only had that 1 season at a high level, none of them would be in either. I would love to hear a single, solitary example of a player who had ONE hall of fame level season. I will happily say you are right if even just one example can be shown.

We're not talking about the best season. It's the ONLY season that made him a HOFer. I'm sorry, but if Chesbro won 41 games over three more seasons he's not in the HOF. He's only in the HOF because he won 41 games in one season. To view him any other way seems like a reach to me. None of the seasons you brought up as being "excellent" seem all that excellent. Even when he led the league in wins in 1902, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team. Nor was he the best pitcher in 1901. Each year he was outclassed by Deacon Phillippe and Jess Tannehil, nether of whom are HOFers. Neither of whom won 41 games.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

We're not talking about the best season. It's the ONLY season that made him a HOFer. I'm sorry, but if Chesbro won 41 games over three more seasons he's not in the HOF. He's only in the HOF because he won 41 games in one season. To view him any other way seems like a reach to me. None of the seasons you brought up as being "excellent" seem all that excellent. Even when he led the league in wins in 1902, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team. Nor was he the best pitcher in 1901. Each year he was outclassed by Deacon Phillippe and Jess Tannehil, nether of whom are HOFers. Neither of whom won 41 games.

Does one have to be the best pitcher/hitter in the league to have a hall of fame level season now? That would put travis at a solid 0 now. We would also have to kick out half of the hall of fame, and then elect a bunch of guys who had 1 great season and were the best pitcher or hitter that year in that league. Your argument changes every single post.


I have already said, multiple times now, that Chesbro is a poor selection. But it is just not factually true that he only had 1 hall of fame level season. If he had only that season, he would not be in the hall of fame (as evidenced by the fact that not a single short-peak player in the Hall, even the worst selections, have only had 1 excellent season).


Yes, if Chesbro did what he did over a long career, it would be less impressive. That is obvious. It is true of every single player in baseball history. If Travis had his 1941 season's numbers cut into 3 years, he would have been sent to the Minor Leagues. If Willie Mays took 60 seasons to do what he did in 20, he would have been a far below average player every year and also sent packing long before his 60th season. This is an absurdist argument, that a player is not a real hall of famer or a star because if you take their best years and pretend they happened in 3 times the length, they would not be hall of famers or stars. There must be some logic, some rationality, some consistency, and we must look at the actual numbers, which are freely available.

[packs]

It's pretty cut and dry to me. If Ted Williams didn't hit 400, he's still a HOFer. If Joe D didn't get a hit in 56 straight games, still a HOFer. If Babe Ruth doesn't hit 60, still a HOFer.

Jack Chesbro did what outside of winning 41 games in one season? Lead the league in wins one other time? So what? The game is full of players who led the league in wins twice in their career. What else sets him apart?

[maniac_73]

Ted, more stories please I'm really enjoying them!

[Jason19th]

I will take the thread to a slightly different course. While I think the hall has done s pretty good job a dealing with the players who lost time mid career because of the war I don’t think that Hall or baseball history in general has done a good job of dealing with players who’s career was delayed by the war. I will use Al Rosen as an example. Rosen who is not well remembered today was the 1953 AL MVP and almost won the triple crown. He had five straight seasons of 100 RBI and had a career war of 35 in a really short career. He is not considered a baseball victim of WWII because his first full year in the majors was 1950. But his first year in the minors was in 1942 when he had a great year as an 18 year old. He then is in the military for 4 years and misses those years. But for the war it is very possible that he makes it to the bigs as a 21 year old rather then a 26 year old and there is s good chance he has 10 straight 1000 seasons and maybe another MVP. I could list many players along this type.