PWCC Auction Ending Tonight - Interesting Results

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by edhans

It's not a matter of holiness, Bobby. It's about principles. Your continued support of this company sends the message that their aiding and abetting the fraud being perpetrated on the hobby, not to mention the denial thereof, is a perfectly acceptable business practice.

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

There's a difference between selling cards that are already slabbed, and continuing to send massive submissions to a known corrupt entity. The latter is far worse, IMO.

I do believe that the large auction houses should do more research to identify potentially tainted cards and not rely solely on the slab. I also believe they should ban consignments from known card doctors and questionable submitters.

I also believe (when a tainted card is outed) that they should reveal the names of the consignors... both to the Feds and publicly. These people need to be called out, similar to how auction houses publicly identify reneging bidders. Why they continue to protect criminal submitters/consignors is beyond me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There's a difference between selling cards that are already slabbed, and continuing to send massive submissions to a known corrupt entity. The latter is far worse, IMO.

I do believe that the large auction houses should do more research to identify potentially tainted cards and not rely solely on the slab. I also believe they should ban consignments from known card doctors and questionable submitters.

I also believe (when a tainted card is outed) that they should reveal the names of the consignors... both to the Feds and publicly. These people need to be called out, similar to how auction houses publicly identify reneging bidders. Why they continue to protect criminal submitters/consignors is beyond me.

So dealers whose livelihood depends on submitting cards should stop, and they (and their families) should take a major financial hit?

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So dealers whose livelihood depends on submitting cards should stop, and they (and their families) should take a major financial hit?

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

Regarding the question in bold...

Yes! If they stopped submitting to this particular enterprise, another more ethical competitor would inevitably surface. Sometimes you need to actually take a stand to make things better.

I am sure there were quite a few honest employees at Enron who took a similar financial hit (to name just one other corrupt company). Sometimes temporary setbacks need to happen for the greater good to prevail.

So my answer is a resounding YES.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Regarding the question in bold...

Yes! If they stopped submitting to this particular enterprise, another more ethical competitor would inevitably surface. Sometimes you need to actually take a stand to make things better.

I am sure there were quite a few honest employees at Enron who took a similar financial hit (to name just one other corrupt company). Sometimes temporary setbacks need to happen for the greater good to prevail.

So my answer is a resounding YES.

So honest people and their families should suffer because PSA is incompetent/corrupt? Sorry, I am not with you on this one.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So honest people and their families should suffer because PSA is incompetent/corrupt? Sorry, I am not with you on this one.

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by edhans

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

While I agree...if every member of net54 refused to use PSA...it wouldn't even register with PSA...imo.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by edhans

If people continue to support them, what incentive do they have to acknowledge their role in the fraud and to address the problems. We are allowing it to be business as usual for them. PSA has essentially thumbed their noses at the hobby. The only way they can be held accountable is to withhold business from them.

Regardless of how many dealers, auction houses, or collectors stop sending cards to PSA there will be new dealers/auction houses, and collectors sending cards to them.

PSA will never acknowledge their role in grading tens of thousands of altered cards . Their volume has never been higher.

Why? Money #1 not Hobby. People are convinced cards in their holders are worth more altered or not, doesn’t matter.. How many altered cards reside in collectors collections that have been bought privately or submitted themselves....the possibilities are endless. PSA knows this will blow over....others will take the fall.

I feel what you’re saying.....it makes total sense...this industry has never made sense logic loses out when the perception of money and greed are paramount, that’s all that matters to many...the bottom line.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's the difference, by the way? Selling slabbed card also perpetuates the system, keeps the cycle going.

PSA only makes money when cards are submitted to them for (re)grading. That's the difference.

A card is what it is, whether it is raw, in a PSA slab or in a penny sleeve. And that holds whether it is altered or not. I think we are now realizing that the PSA premium is not all that we (collectively) thought it was.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

PSA only makes money when cards are submitted to them for (re)grading. That's the difference.

A card is what it is, whether it is raw, in a PSA slab or in a penny sleeve. And that holds whether it is altered or not. I think we are now realizing that the PSA premium is not all that we (collectively) thought it was.

I was going to answer myself (after REA) since Peter's question was in response was to my comment. But you did it for me.

Thanks.... that is word-for-word what I was going to say.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I was going to answer myself (after REA) since Peter's question was in response was to my comment. But you did it for me.

Thanks.... that is word-for-word what I was going to say.

PSA makes money when its cards sell for good value and people are encouraged to keep submitting, so I disagree with you again.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA makes money when its cards sell for good value and people are encouraged to keep submitting, so I disagree with you again.

PSA doesn't make any money when "people are encouraged to keep submitting". They only make money when people actually submit the cards.

A PSA entombed card can sell 100 times, increasing in value by 20% each time it sells - and PSA does not make a dime off of those transactions. Nada. Zilch.

They are not like the government who taxes you on each transaction.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you object to REA, Heritage, and every other auction house continuing to sell PSA graded cards?

I don't think we can condemn selling cards already in our possession. I have several myself. It's the continued enthusiastic support of PSA in the light of the recent disclosures that troubles me.