Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by toolifedave

I have not given the buyer’s name since it is my understand to use this site I have be careful what I post. The ebay original ad has been posted by someone else and includes the winners details.

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

That's how 90 percent of the complaint threads end up Ryan, without naming names.

And I would still like to know why, if the OP thought he had a genuine unaltered Gehrig 7, he would let it go in a GAI holder at a fraction of what it would sell for in a real holder. But I can only ask the same question so many times before I lose interest.

[Leon]

Ryan, I always appreciate the help but that bolded rule at the top of every page has changed. I kept getting the "well, if it is a fact then it's not an opinion and I don't need my name out there." To that I call total BS so the wording changed. Here is the new rule below (been there a few months at least). It tightened up (or loosened, if you will) the rule. So if the OP mentions the name of the seller then his full name will have to be out here. I am not sure he minds. I know positively that the op is not a big techie person as I walked him through how to post before this thread, on a very pleasant phone call. That all said, now the new rule is-

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.
.

And my thought, regardless of what sales talk was given in the description, you crack a card you own a card. (unless both parties agree it is ok beforehand, which is not the case here.)

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not sure where you are getting your rules for using this site- if you post an opinion about someone you must give your full name, but other than that, you are free to speak the truth and to name people who have screwed you. In fact, I think you are doing the Net54 community a disservice by not telling the name of the person. This guy weasels you out of over $5000, you start a thread to complain about it, yet you hide the guy’s name? That makes no sense in my opinion. You are ask the Board for advice and help, yet you won’t help to protect the people from whom you are seeking help and advice? Again, nonsense.

Best of luck.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Mark17]

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they didn't get it right the seller has a huge opportunity to try again, with them or SGC, to get it into a real holder where it will be worth several X what he was willing to sell it for.

you assume every collector/investor is interested in playing the game with the TPG'ers. Personally I am not! I will not waste/spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to keep "trying" for a better grade.

You can't assume this is every seller's motive?

[slightlyrounded]

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

The precedent this creates is startling. Just think of all the GAI-graded "unopened packs" out there....

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

Somewhere in here is a statement purportedly by Ebay that GAI is not an approved service which would imply that PSA, SGC and Beckett holders would be treated differently.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Not just that, but apparently I can now crack out any PSA or SGC card and return it so long as it doesn't regrade at the same level or higher.

This is a big point. What's to stop people from attempting this?

I can't believe people really think it's OK to break a card out of a holder and try to return it. I get it, it's a GAI holder but this is crazy. Buyer should have attempted a cross over IN THE HOLDER. If they didn't want any bias, then that's a risk THEY take by removing it, period.

Next up will be people cracking out PSA/SGC cards and attempting returns because the card graded ALT/AUTH.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If the card was still in the GAI holder I would agree 100%, but he's simply not returning the same item he received. I'm not saying this is the case, but PSA has sort of proved they are fallible, who's to say they got this right? Also there is no reason to crack a card for crossover other than trying to hide information. The buyer had no right to crack a card and then initiate a return.

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Then this argument holds no water. Im sorry...you want to crossover....you keep it in the case. The seller sold a GAI graded card. He did not get a GAI graded card back. If I was on the jury, I would be on the sellers side.

You are assuming he was trying to cross over. He may have been trying to authenticate. Whatever his motivation, he discovered the card was doctored. I'll bet there are a lot of big smiles at PWCC headquarters right now, seeing how many people think that when a buyer buys a high graded card but receives a doctored one instead, he should be stuck with it, period.

And that, when trying to determine authenticity/alterations, the card must remain in the plastic brick.

Look, I basically agree that returns must be the same item in the same condition. But when deception in the form of alteration (not on the part of the seller, but alteration nevertheless) is discovered, THAT is where it's no longer an apples to apples argument.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Mark17

A valid reason to crack a card, especially out of a GAI holder, is to verify authenticity. If you sell me a card claiming it to be authentic and of high grade, and I discover (with the help of a [more reputable*] grading service, that is altered and therefore worth a fraction of what it was represented to be, then it would not be reasonable for you to basically tell me:

"Well, you discovered I sold you a misrepresented, altered card for much more money than it is actually worth. But since you needed to break it out in order for that inspection to have been made, you have now made it impossible for me to foist it onto another buyer in that "7" holder. So, since I cannot sell that altered card for $5,000+ to some other victim, YOU are stuck being my victim."


* Debatable, admittedly. But GAI has to be less reputable than PSA I would think.

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

How many major cards in another company's holder have you successfully crossed? How many were GAI?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Neither PSA nor SGC require you to crack a card to cross it over so your whole point is moot.

In other threads, I thought a lot of people were insisting that cards cannot be accurately assessed while in plastic holders. Viewing the edges, specifically, but also the thickness and texture of the cards cannot be determined with an entombed card.

Which brings up an interesting question: Suppose you send a card to PSA in a different holder. You tell them you don't want them to do anything unless it crosses. They decide it will cross, break it out of the old case to put into theirs, but at that point they notice the edges are newly cut. What would they do?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If PWCC sold a card that was graded a 7 that was actually altered, everyone here would be jumping all over PWCC and on the side of the buyer, who had revealed the alteration.

In this case the OP sells a card graded GAI 7 that turns out to be altered, and most here are excoriating the buyer for revealing the card was actually altered.

Am I missing something, or is this just hypocrisy? I'm not saying the OP did anything wrong, but a buyer who pays over $5k for a card graded 7 and receives an altered card should not just be stuck with it. If this was the case, why all the whining about PWCC and their alleged altered cards?

If the OP can sell a card that's altered, but was wrongly slabbed with a high grade, why can't anybody?

Look at the card..... doesn't the right border get narrower, looking from top to bottom?

Not apples to apples...

First off, PSA is anything but infallible. They are the ones who’ve mistakenly numerically graded those thousands of PWCC and other altered cards. They have made more “mistakes” and issued more false numerical grades than anyone. So why is their word the word of God? It’s amazing that despite the mountain of indisputable evidence, people are still hypnotized by them.

Secondly, the card was sold with a proper description in a GAI Holder. It was not returned in the same state. You cannot tamper with an item and then return it, when you failed to realize the desired personal gain.

Lastly, the apparent narrowing of the card towards the bottom is due to the way and the angle by which it was photographed. It is called a parallax view, and is a common phenomenon when photographing at an angle. The portion closest to the camera lens will appear larger than the portion that’s further away.

If the card was scanned in a more traditional manner, you’d see that it is symmetrical. Bottom line is that the buyer took advantage of the system, at the expense of the seller. I hope his name is disclosed, for the sake of our collecting community.

[Rhotchkiss]

You crack, no give back.

No disclosure (of buyer), no pity.

[Bill77]

Just a hypothetical question, If the card came back as a PSA 5 it would have been worth what the buyer paid according to the PSA pricing of the card, so if the card had come back with a grade of 5 or less would the buyer still have tried to return the card knowing he would not have made any profit on a similar or higher PSA grade for the card?

[Joe Hunter]

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

well said

[toolifedave]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

Thank you Joe , well said

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

Exactly. And here is my opinion before my rant below. "Buyer Beware" became "Buyers Remorse"; he took a gamble and lost, and now he wants his money back after altering of the purchase. The seller is not Costco or Home Depot, where you can return almost anything.

Originally Posted by Sean

The OP sold an altered card. Now, assuming he got the same card back, he hasn't lost anything. The GAI holder was incorrect, the card should not have gotten a numeric grade.

It sounds like the OP bought a card that turned out to be altered, and now he wanted to pass the loss on to the next buyer.

Not sure how you can determine intent of the seller was to sell an altered card, or sell a GAI graded card.

And we all are assuming that GAI is incorrect and PSA is correct. Maybe the opposite is true. Not saying it is, I am simply taking a contrarian approach. Forgive me, but I may have read somewhere on this site about the odd mistake PSA makes.

Finally, I have to say a lot of what is going on here frustrates me about some people on this site.

A new guy with 21 previous posts comes on here, tells his story about how the product he sold that was returned altered, and in certainly less valuable state. He is reaching out to see if he is nuts, or what should be the protocol. Regardless of the holder, he sold a product.

What he gets back is (ballpark) 50% understanding him, and 50% accusing him of trying to pull a fast one. The truth is we truly don't know what his motives are, and we truly don't know what the buyers motives are (myself included). It's all conjecture. Then, after being grilled, as a new poster he is trying to play by the rules and is unsure whether he should post the buyers eBay ID. He gets crucified for that too, like he's hiding something.

Frankly some of the replies from the conspiracy theorists to the newbie are shameful. Likely nobody knows this guy at all, yet yet many of us are incredibly judgmental. If I were in his position, I'd probably go radio silent too, and not read or post here again.

I'll probably get crucified too for this post, but I am OK with my position. I'm old and comfortable with that.

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I am going to side with the seller on this one. If you purchase a slabbed card, you are getting both the card and the slab it is in. As a buyer, you are accepting the grading company's opinion of the card that appears on the slab. The fact that it is in a GAI slab makes no difference; you are accepting GAI's opinion. By cracking it out and sending it to another company for their opinion, you are forfeiting your right to return the card to the seller, as per ebay's rules, in that the merchandise is no longer in the condition in which it was sent. If you are wary of GAI, then steer clear. In short, the buyer received exactly what he paid for.

This^...for the win. The buyer took the gamble and chose to remove the card knowing full and well there was, at the very least, a decent chance the card may have been altered (which is assumed by the price he paid for a GAI 7 graded '33 Goudey Lou Gehrig). He also was disingenuous on his return by not disclosing that the item purchased (a 1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig in GAI 7) had been cracked from the original case it was sold in. I don't see how anyone could side with the buyer on this one and my guess is he would lose the case in a court of law.

[Mark17]

I think a lot of people here, if they want to be consistent on principle, need to revise some of their posts in the dozens of threads involving sellers peddling altered cards in high-grade TPG holders.

I am not saying the OP knew that was the case.

Now that the card is out of its holder, second, third, fourth opinions can be rendered. If it is in fact altered, then the buyer avoided being taken and that is a good thing for everybody, especially future owners of that card.

As was noted by many, in previous posts, grading/authenticating cannot be done very accurately when a card is in a holder, so cracking it out was required to reveal the true condition of the card.

Disclaimers:

1. Had PSA said it was unaltered, but low grade, I would side with the seller. Numeric grade is opinion. Altered is a different story.

2. If GAI's standards were such that an altered card could still receive a "7" grade, then I would side with the seller.

3. If it turns out the card is not conclusively determined to be altered, I would side with the seller.

[JohnP0621]

I once purchased a Ty Cobb Silk at the Philly Show 2 years ago that was graded by GAI 4 . After the purchase I took it directly to the SGC table in the original slab to have it re-graded by SGC.,The item came back as altered. I contacted the seller and asked for a refund . The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case. The seller took back the card and gave the full refund . I knew when I purchased the card that a lot of GAI cards come back as altered when submitted to SGC or PSA. I also knew that if the card came back in the same grade it would have been worth more $$$ in the SGC slab. But I was also aware that if I cracked it out before submitting and it came back altered the Gamble would be on me 100%
and I would not expect the seller to take any of the responsibility .
I think in this case both parties should take a part of the responsibility
The buyer took a big gamble and lost . Also hard to believe that the seller didn't think the card might have been altered when listed as Near Mint.

John P

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

The seller said he had no problem giving me the full refund as long as the item was not removed from the case.

And if PWCC said this, EVERYBODY on this site would say: "So you can try to resell the altered card as a nicely graded card to the next sucker, right?!"

If the card was altered and being misrepresented in that GAI 7 holder, the buyer did all of us, and hobbyists yet unborn, a favor. One less mis-graded card out there.

[bounce]

if the card was not returned in the GAI holder, it's not what was sold.

It may take a lot of effort, but items like this have to be returned in the condition in which they were sold.

Once it returned, take pictures and send them in, compared to the original pictures of how it was sold. Again, may take a while but you'll have a good chance of not having to accept the return if it's not returned as sent - and this one clearly wasn't.

However, this situation also demonstrates just how much more complicated all these altered cards are making the hobby now.

[ullmandds]

I have had a few GAI graded cards over the years...a 33 delong gehrig that DID grade out with SGC.

If you play the game...you have to accept the risks.

[wondo]

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by wondo

I pretty much side with the seller. The buyer took advantage of the current climate and played both sides of the coin. It is common knowledge that a GAI 7 has risk associated with it. I am unaware of any guarantee that is associated with a GAI card. I agree with the sentiment of You break it; you bought it and 2. Item must be returned in original condition.

My gut tells me that when the buyer is identified, the pieces of the puzzle will fall in place.

Getting a free shot at a lottery ticket SHOULD NOT be allowed. The seller isn't getting back what he sold. Not at all.