Slightly OT - 2020 Modern Baseball Era HOF Ballot

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at the top 25 players and pitchers by WAR. I don't think there are any real anomalies. Obviously it's quite good if not perfect. Interestingly, in my observations most people who object to it do so because it happens to devalue one of their favorite players.

[packs]

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

I don't see WAR as a way to make absolute statements about who is better/more valuable, but I think it's more of a jumping off point. Why does Player A seem to have more value than Player B? It gives us a chance to dig deeper into the statistical profile behind the player.
For instance, and to circle back around to this "Modern Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot," I think that both Dewey and Whitaker have higher WAR than many expect because of their ability to draw walks (among other things, such as defense), which is the classic "undervalued" statistic prior to 20 years ago.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

A little O/T but Mr Clemens WAS better then both Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson and it really isn't all that close.

[packs]

If you say so. Only two of the three are in the HOF though.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at the top 25 players and pitchers by WAR. I don't think there are any real anomalies. Obviously it's quite good if not perfect. Interestingly, in my observations most people who object to it do so because it happens to devalue one of their favorite players.

Joe DiMaggio? Do you really think Joe isn't a top 25 or even top 40 player and worse than Charlie Gehringer or Brooks Robinson?

[Bigdaddy]

nat - thanks for the WAR primer. Being an engineer, I like to see what is behind the final numbers. WAR is a good general measure of the many things that we can quantify during a baseball game. Situations, actions, outcomes, we can measure them all (and assimilate all that data) and WAR does a good job of that for both offense and defense, and puts it in terms of winning ballgames.

As others have said though, there are things we can't measure that also contribute to winning or losing. How does a player 'feed the fire' of his teammates, how is their locker room demeanor, do they loaf or hustle on a routine ground ball/pop fly? We don't have a way to measure those things, but they do have an effect on the fate of teams.

So when evaluating a player, we must use 'data fusion'. Statistics of things we can measure and judgement of those things we can't. Without both, the picture is incomplete.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe DiMaggio? Do you really think Joe isn't a top 25 or even top 40 player and worse than Charlie Gehringer or Brooks Robinson?

I acknowledge it can penalize relatively short careers. That's why someone came up with JAWS that averages WAR and WAR7. I suspect Joe does better there.

[mr2686]

Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons are now Hall of Famers.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by mr2686

marvin miller and ted simmons are now hall of famers.

+1000!!

[triwak]

Anyone know of a Marvin Miller card, earlier than the 1994 Upper Deck Ken Burns' "Baseball" film card? Any old postcards ever surfaced?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by triwak

Anyone know of a Marvin Miller card, earlier than the 1994 Upper Deck Ken Burns' "Baseball" film card? Any old postcards ever surfaced?

That's the first that I am aware of.