Slightly OT - 2020 Modern Baseball Era HOF Ballot

[rats60]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Arguments like this are funny, like saying that because Albert Einstein never travelled at the speed of light his theory of relativity is BS.




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This is not a good analogy. A better one is if Albert Einstein said I have this formula E=mc2, but I am not going to tell you what it is, you give me the data and I will give you the answer. I am not going to subject my formula to scientific analysis and I can change my formula anytime I like, but you mist accept everything I say as true. Would you just drink the koolaid? This is WAR, except we have multiple people claiming to be Albert Einstein.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is not a good analogy. A better one is if Albert Einstein said I have this formula E=mc2, but I am not going to tell you what it is, you give me the data and I will give you the answer. I am not going to subject my formula to scientific analysis and I can change my formula anytime I like, but you mist accept everything I say as true. Would you just drink the koolaid? This is WAR, except we have multiple people claiming to be Albert Einstein.

That is the problem with modern analytics, we are taking someones word that it is what they say it is. Old days, most kids knew how to figure BA, ERA, Win Pct, now you need a computer and have to know the secret formula.

I still like some modern analytics because they go deeper than old school stats.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Jim65

That is the problem with modern analytics, we are taking someones word that it is what they say it is. Old days, most kids knew how to figure BA, ERA, Win Pct, now you need a computer and have to know the secret formula.

I still like some modern analytics because they go deeper than old school stats.

It's true that most kids can figure out those stats, just as most kids can figure out heartbeats per minute or even the P/E ratio for a stock or the area of a circle.
But can most adults understand the math and equations behind some of the numbers on a health chart at the hospital, or some of the complex computations in investing, or even how to figure out engine displacement?
WAR is not something created and owned by one person, or even two. It's been vetted by others in the statistical community who understand the math at a high level. I don't understand the gritty details of it, as many others don't, but I also don't understand the math that goes into engine displacement, some investment equations, etc. etc. I trust, as many people do, professionals who do understand them, and often in life-or-death situations.
And that doesn't mean the trust should be complete - WAR, as with other statistics, should be taken with a grain of salt. But I don't see it as just taking someone's word for it, WAR is a product of a larger community that has vetted and honed it over the years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Look at the top 25 players and pitchers by WAR. I don't think there are any real anomalies. Obviously it's quite good if not perfect. Interestingly, in my observations most people who object to it do so because it happens to devalue one of their favorite players.

[packs]

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

I don't see WAR as a way to make absolute statements about who is better/more valuable, but I think it's more of a jumping off point. Why does Player A seem to have more value than Player B? It gives us a chance to dig deeper into the statistical profile behind the player.
For instance, and to circle back around to this "Modern Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot," I think that both Dewey and Whitaker have higher WAR than many expect because of their ability to draw walks (among other things, such as defense), which is the classic "undervalued" statistic prior to 20 years ago.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe the names match the reputations but I would say the WAR stat doesn't say a lot about who was a better player. Maybe there are some people who think Roger Clemens was a better pitcher (more valuable?) than Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson, but I wouldn't be one of them. I wouldn't say Kid Nichols was better than Tom Seaver either.

A little O/T but Mr Clemens WAS better then both Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson and it really isn't all that close.

[packs]

If you say so. Only two of the three are in the HOF though.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Look at the top 25 players and pitchers by WAR. I don't think there are any real anomalies. Obviously it's quite good if not perfect. Interestingly, in my observations most people who object to it do so because it happens to devalue one of their favorite players.

Joe DiMaggio? Do you really think Joe isn't a top 25 or even top 40 player and worse than Charlie Gehringer or Brooks Robinson?

[Bigdaddy]

nat - thanks for the WAR primer. Being an engineer, I like to see what is behind the final numbers. WAR is a good general measure of the many things that we can quantify during a baseball game. Situations, actions, outcomes, we can measure them all (and assimilate all that data) and WAR does a good job of that for both offense and defense, and puts it in terms of winning ballgames.

As others have said though, there are things we can't measure that also contribute to winning or losing. How does a player 'feed the fire' of his teammates, how is their locker room demeanor, do they loaf or hustle on a routine ground ball/pop fly? We don't have a way to measure those things, but they do have an effect on the fate of teams.

So when evaluating a player, we must use 'data fusion'. Statistics of things we can measure and judgement of those things we can't. Without both, the picture is incomplete.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Joe DiMaggio? Do you really think Joe isn't a top 25 or even top 40 player and worse than Charlie Gehringer or Brooks Robinson?

I acknowledge it can penalize relatively short careers. That's why someone came up with JAWS that averages WAR and WAR7. I suspect Joe does better there.

[mr2686]

Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons are now Hall of Famers.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

WAR is not something created and owned by one person, or even two. It's been vetted by others in the statistical community who understand the math at a high level.

Link please. I don't think this is true at all.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rats60

Link please. I don't think this is true at all.

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by rats60

Link please. I don't think this is true at all.

I get that people are skeptical. And on a side note, I don't like seeing a thread about something else (in this case, the HOF ballot) devolve into a WAR debate. But here goes...
Feel free to google "baseball war," as you'll probably find many links to many interesting articles. On the most basic level, Wikipedia's page on WAR includes some analysis including a link to a regression analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wins_Above_Replacement
The equations that Fangraphs and BaseballReference use are also on that page. They are not a secret recipe or behind a curtain, they are there to be enjoyed and criticized for both their attributes and faults.
In this recent story on MLB.com (note that WAR is not a stat recognized by MLB), the influence on front offices of teams are explored: https://www.mlb.com/news/war-embrace...ces-c303484670
One takeaway from that MLB story: "At this point, though, every team in baseball is employing some sort of WAR calculation."
Basically, every team uses some evolutionary child of WAR, which probably got started in earnest 20 years ago (or so). It's not the ONLY assessment they use for player evaluations, but it is ubiquitous at this point.
So the masses of front office personnel, the minds at various websites like BR and Fangraphs and the sabermetric community in general has spent two decades honing and debating these things - this is what I'm talking about with WAR being vetted.

[JollyElm]

Warning: This is a long and boring post.

My problem with relying on theoretical WAR stats is that baseball is really a game of small players. You have all the superstars and all-time greats, but so many of the incredible moments in baseball are the result of lesser players coming up big time, or quality players messing up. You can say Player 'A' or 'B' has great WAR numbers, but depending on that STAT alone would ultimately eliminate all of the accomplishments of low WAR numbered players. (This is stream of consciousness writing, so I am obviously talking in a very general sort of way.)

I'm a New Yorker, so I'll just quickly mention a few playoff games involving the Mets and Yankees:
1. If Bucky Dent is replaced, do the the Yankees win that tie-breaker?
2. How about Don Larsen? Do the Yanks win that game without him?
3. Bill Mazeroski?
4. Ron Swoboda?
5. How about leaving Bill Buckner in? If they replaced him, do the Sox win the World Series? Yes!

Baseball is about championships, and who could've seen the above named players having such a huge impact on an entire season? And those are only players who quickly come to mind with regard to NY and the playoffs. There are a gazillion other cases of players whose WAR stats should have had them on the bench, but were in the game and did something great. Baseball isn't science, it's all about momentary factors, especially considering the fact that just to make it to the majors you have to have an enormous amount of skill and talent.

It breaks my heart to dredge it up again, but I'm a Mets fan. In 2015, Yoenis Cespedes basically single-handedly carried the Metties to the World Series after being acquired halfway through the season. For the second half, he was a force the likes of which I have never seen in baseball. They would've been in last place without him. Yes, that is hyperbole, but pretty friggin' close to being true. His half-season WAR (if something like that exists) was incalculable, but...and it's a huge BUT...he absolutely sucked in the World Series. If memory serves right, I know he had no extra base hits, only a single RBI on a sac fly, and batted .150 or something?? I believe that's right. Just look at the ridiculous effort he gave on the first pitch of the Series...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E&&FORM=VRDGAR

Back to Bob Costas for a moment. That guy, who has never played a game of baseball in his life (yes, I can't stand that pretentious idiot), would say, "Well, Cespedes could hear his teammate's footfalls approaching and thought it better to slow up and avoid impeding his progress to the horsehide." Whereas someone who understands baseball and has played his entire life in the outfield (like me) would say, "It's the g_ddamn World Series!! If I have to crash into a wall, a land mine or a teammate, I am catching that ball!!!!"


Then there was this wonderful play on the bases, ending the game:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...4&&FORM=VRDGAR


And more lackasdaisical outfield work:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...7&&FORM=VRDGAR


Yet, his fielding percentage was 1.000% for the Series (I just looked it up, as well as the stats mentioned above). So, statistically he didn't commit a single error, but does that fact truly tell the story?? Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(It should go without saying, but yes, I understand that he was just one player, so it clearly wasn't his fault alone...but this post started with WAR, so it's relevant.) A monster year and I love him for it, but if he was replaced by even a newbie from AAA, the Mets would've stood a (much) better chance at winning, and that still depresses me.

[steve B]

To draw things away from stats...

Parker once commented that he had problems getting "charged up" for games.
So the fans threw batteries at him...

And for that, plus being really good, he should be in!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

.

It breaks my heart to dredge it up again, but I'm a Mets fan. In 2015, Yoenis Cespedes basically single-handedly carried the Metties to the World Series after being acquired halfway through the season. For the second half, he was a force the likes of which I have never seen in baseball.

Take a peek at Manny Ramirez, 2009.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Warning: This is a long and boring post.

My problem with relying on theoretical WAR stats is that baseball is really a game of small players. You have all the superstars and all-time greats, but so many of the incredible moments in baseball are the result of lesser players coming up big time, or quality players messing up. You can say Player 'A' or 'B' has great WAR numbers, but depending on that STAT alone would ultimately eliminate all of the accomplishments of low WAR numbered players. (This is stream of consciousness writing, so I am obviously talking in a very general sort of way.)

I'm a New Yorker, so I'll just quickly mention a few playoff games involving the Mets and Yankees:
1. If Bucky Dent is replaced, do the the Yankees win that tie-breaker?
2. How about Don Larsen? Do the Yanks win that game without him?
3. Bill Mazeroski?
4. Ron Swoboda?
5. How about leaving Bill Buckner in? If they replaced him, do the Sox win the World Series? Yes!

Baseball is about championships, and who could've seen the above named players having such a huge impact on an entire season? And those are only players who quickly come to mind with regard to NY and the playoffs. There are a gazillion other cases of players whose WAR stats should have had them on the bench, but were in the game and did something great. Baseball isn't science, it's all about momentary factors, especially considering the fact that just to make it to the majors you have to have an enormous amount of skill and talent.

It breaks my heart to dredge it up again, but I'm a Mets fan. In 2015, Yoenis Cespedes basically single-handedly carried the Metties to the World Series after being acquired halfway through the season. For the second half, he was a force the likes of which I have never seen in baseball. They would've been in last place without him. Yes, that is hyperbole, but pretty friggin' close to being true. His half-season WAR (if something like that exists) was incalculable, but...and it's a huge BUT...he absolutely sucked in the World Series. If memory serves right, I know he had no extra base hits, only a single RBI on a sac fly, and batted .150 or something?? I believe that's right. Just look at the ridiculous effort he gave on the first pitch of the Series...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E&&FORM=VRDGAR

Back to Bob Costas for a moment. That guy, who has never played a game of baseball in his life (yes, I can't stand that pretentious idiot), would say, "Well, Cespedes could hear his teammate's footfalls approaching and thought it better to slow up and avoid impeding his progress to the horsehide." Whereas someone who understands baseball and has played his entire life in the outfield (like me) would say, "It's the g_ddamn World Series!! If I have to crash into a wall, a land mine or a teammate, I am catching that ball!!!!"


Then there was this wonderful play on the bases, ending the game:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...4&&FORM=VRDGAR


And more lackasdaisical outfield work:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...7&&FORM=VRDGAR


Yet, his fielding percentage was 1.000% for the Series (I just looked it up, as well as the stats mentioned above). So, statistically he didn't commit a single error, but does that fact truly tell the story?? Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(It should go without saying, but yes, I understand that he was just one player, so it clearly wasn't his fault alone...but this post started with WAR, so it's relevant.) A monster year and I love him for it, but if he was replaced by even a newbie from AAA, the Mets would've stood a (much) better chance at winning, and that still depresses me.

If it makes you feel better his WAR with the Mets that year was 2.3 for about 1/3 a season. Extrapolate that to a 6.9 and it's a great season, but not even MVP level most years. Also don't use WAR in a bubble. Cespedes is normally about a 3 WAR guy. That's the reality, not his flukey 2015.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is not a good analogy. A better one is if Albert Einstein said I have this formula E=mc2, but I am not going to tell you what it is, you give me the data and I will give you the answer. I am not going to subject my formula to scientific analysis and I can change my formula anytime I like, but you mist accept everything I say as true. Would you just drink the koolaid? This is WAR, except we have multiple people claiming to be Albert Einstein.

I was talking about the Bob Costas part of the comment I quoted and the argument that I have heard many players use, which is that if you haven't played the game you don't have a basis for analyzing it. Which I think is completely bunk.