PSA/BGS/PWCC dispute or refund thread

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

You don't get that Brent Mastro was in on the trimming card scam from the beginning? ., maybe they'll sue PSA for the $$$ and continue to deny deny deny, right calvindog?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?

Isn't it obvious??? THEY are in on the scam, that's the only logical conclusion PERIOD

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

Not if they submitted the cards which I am sure in many cases they did.

[swarmee]

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

PWCC would not sue PSA in the first place for cards it submitted, or for cards consigned to it by known doctors.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

While I don't own any of the outed cards or even purchased from PWCC that I can remember, I took a card to PSA at the National that was clearly not the correct grade for the holder. They contacted me a couple weeks later via phone call and agreed and offered compensation. Not sure if you were looking for examples of PWCC scandal cards or just cards that were covered by the guarantee in general.

[JollyElm]

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

LMAO

Rotatrim

[swarmee]

Didn't the guy here with the altered T3 get a reimbursement directly from PSA?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Didn't the guy here with the altered T3 get a reimbursement directly from PSA?

yes but he bought it from Dan McKee, not PWCC.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC would not sue PSA in the first place for cards it submitted, or for cards consigned to it by known doctors.

so any cards they did not submit or get consigned to it by a known doctor you agree they could go after PSA for if they made payment on to a wronged buyer

also why bring up suing, they can submit a claim. Doesnt have to be a lawsuits..why so quick to bring up lawsuit. Some people pay based on a letter

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

so any cards they did not submit or get consigned to it by a known doctor you agree they could go after PSA for if they made payment on to a wronged buyer

also why bring up suing, they can submit a claim. Doesnt have to be a lawsuits..why so quick to bring up lawsuit. Some people pay based on a letter

Because I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned a possible countersuit. Carry on, Mr. Chao.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.

It is a good point that if the submitter signs a contract stating he did not altered the card (or perhaps know the card is altered?), they broke/lied on the the grading contact and are liable. This, of course, doesn't dismiss that PSA wsa unable to identify the alterations.

I think PSA should pay the price for their inabilities to do their job, but forgers and liars should also pay a price.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Because I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned a possible countersuit. Carry on, Mr. Chao.

you actually responded to my post specfically as was well saying PWCC cant collect from PSA if PWCC was the one that submitted the cards, so thus, that would imply pwcc could collect on the ones that were not submitted, Mr. Chao.

so PWCC can refund and then collect from PSA....so buck can still end with PSA .. (net54 members has asked why would pwcc refund when it should be psa, so this gives one explanation on some of the cards at least)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

you actually responded to my post specfically as was well saying PWCC cant collect from PSA if PWCC was the one that submitted the cards, so thus, that would imply pwcc could collect on the ones that were not submitted, Mr. Chao.

so PWCC can refund and then collect from PSA....so buck can still end with PSA .. (net54 members has asked why would pwcc refund when it should be psa, so this gives one explanation on some of the cards at least)

I never said otherwise. Just not on cards they submitted or were consigned by known doctors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I never said otherwise. Just not on cards they submitted or were consigned by known doctors.

I wonder what percentage that would be...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I wonder what percentage that would be...

I would guess most of the doctored cards they handled, they knew about. Not all of course.

[Flintboy]

Peters point above is what I was referencing in my original post about this subject. Please do not take that I am in favor of any company or person that alters cards- I am not. Regardless of who is submitting these cards, as the industry leader they need to detect the alterations. Relying on the submitter to sign the submission form stating they haven’t altered the cards is simply an easy way out for them to pass the buck. The reason I submit cards and my money to them is to make sure they haven’t been altered. I’m an honest guy but I hope PSA doesn’t take only my word when I submit that the cards in the grading order aren’t altered. Looking over at BODA, it seems that they rely on that disclaimer and trust of the submitter to often.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Peters point above is what I was referencing in my original post about this subject. Please do not take that I am in favor of any company or person that alters cards- I am not. Regardless of who is submitting these cards, as the industry leader they need to detect the alterations. Relying on the submitter to sign the submission form stating they haven’t altered the cards is simply an easy way out for them to pass the buck. The reason I submit cards and my money to them is to make sure they haven’t been altered. I’m an honest guy but I hope PSA doesn’t take only my word when I submit that the cards in the grading order aren’t altered. Looking over at BODA, it seems that they rely on that disclaimer and trust of the submitter to often.

Agree PSA has to be challenged on breach of conduct acting in bad faith by alleged card doctor whom submitted. Prove that alleged submitter altered the card and has submitted in bad faith. Idk what the hell is their purpose if they can’t back up their end. I’m not on anyone’s side however IMO Allowing PSA to Continue to PUNT any Responsibility/liability will have serious long term detriment to the hobby/industry.

It’s all a bunch of garbage finger pointing/cover up’s

Card Doctor, Shady Auction Houses, and PSA’s Inabilities/lack of responsibilities are gonna tank the card industry. Greed :-(....sad

[Leon]

A bad actor or three won't tank this industry/hobby.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree PSA has to be challenged on breach of conduct acting in bad faith by alleged card doctor whom submitted. Prove that alleged submitter altered the card and has submitted in bad faith. Idk what the hell is their purpose if they can’t back up their end. I’m not on anyone’s side however IMO Allowing PSA to Continue to PUNT any Responsibility/liability will have serious long term detriment to the hobby/industry.

It’s all a bunch of garbage finger pointing/cover up’s

Card Doctor, Shady Auction Houses, and PSA’s Inabilities/lack of responsibilities are gonna tank the card industry. Greed :-(....sad

[swarmee]

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

Stuff. Need I say the rest?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

You need to add a few 0s to that to be even close to the number of bad people in the hobby. Your number is way closer to the honest people.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

You need to add a few 0s to that to be even close to the number of bad people in the hobby. Your number is way closer to the honest people.

After bnorth and myself that leaves 48 remaining honest people in the hobby

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's like the ancient Greek Diogenes, searching for an honest man.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Stuff. Need I say the rest?

Stuff but more importantly the answer is always money. So many collectors and dealers are in up to their ears with PSA, and it's their livelihood for many of them, they can't quit their sacred cow....even if it is producing sour milk. Who cares if it is a fraudulent card, it is in a holder. LOL.....Remember, we are just troublemakers. Kudos again to the guys over on Blowout for all of the fraud exposed so far. I am sure it will be going on for as long as they want to look. It is sad.

[1952boyntoncollector]

i really havent seen anyone posting about getting a refund or resolving a dispute on this thread for awhile

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Does anyone have any dealings to report here?

apparently none.

[Stonepony]

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later a received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

great to hear and to see people are free to share info without restriction..

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

Well done on their behalf.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

They’re no saints...this is the right thing to do....it’s damage control mitigation

My only hope is some great lawyering throws this back onto PSA and or the other TPG’s

Excited for your auction tonight, I’ll be bidding/watching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

Whatever the motivation, and I am completely cynical about that, it's better than the nothing that most industry players apparently are doing.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever the motivation, and I am completely cynical about that, it's better than the nothing that most industry players apparently are doing.

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

..

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

..

Hopefully!

[Johnny630]

Burn Baby Burn !

[Leon]

They are still worth money just not in the holders they are in. And at a fraction of the price.

[CuriousGeorge]

Brent is going to have a special FBI auction touting the new great investments. 2018 was $60K, now $7K!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

Yes, very nice letter...

It gives you that great warm fuzzy feeling, just in time for the holidays. Reading it was a true "Hallmark Moment" for me.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

Psa may be too big to fail...apparently PWCC is not!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by irv

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

My idea was to put a hole punch in them like they do with playing cards that used be used in Las Vegas

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

Unbelievably un-woke. Everyone just stick your head in the sand . Nothing to see here. Move on sheeple.

Worst email since Joe O sent his. Appallingly disingenuous .

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't post it too many times.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

My idea was to put a hole punch in them like they do with playing cards that used be used in Las Vegas

And you don’t think the next wave of a hole card doctors will just fix the holes?