OT - best pitcher regular season / worst pitcher post season?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

It's all about being on the hook for the pitcher's contract. Spahn, Gibby, Seaver and Carlton weren't making 20+million a year with 4 or 5 years left on a contract. Mangers are told to "manage" so that they get the most out of them for a potential win, and then use the bullpen. I miss the old days.

[frankbmd]

The percentage of wins credited to starters is decreasing faster than their salaries are increasing.

If Spahn was given to the hook based on a pitch count, he wouldn’t have won over 300 games, unless, of course, the early hooks allowed him to pitch into his 60s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Warren Spahn at age 42 tossed a league leading 22 complete games.
For his career, he completed 57 percent of his starts.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Warren Spahn at age 42 tossed a league leading 22 complete games.
For his career, he completed 57 percent of his starts.

I suspect that the stats for the HOF pre-War pitchers will show even higher percentages of starts completed: for example:

WaJo completed 531 or 79.7% of his 666 regular season starts.
Matty completed 435 or 78.8% of his 552 regular season starts.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

And they pitched on three days rest.

[oldjudge]

Athletes do what they are conditioned to do. Blame the organizations they pitch for if you don’t like the number of innings pitchers are throwing.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't understand why, with all the advances in training and medical knowledge, starting pitchers today are such snowflakes that you have to start to worry about their pitch count after 5 innings, even when they have an extra day of rest than used to be the norm. How often do you think their managers were worried that Spahn, or Gibby, or Seaver, or Carlton had thrown too many pitches?

Because they throw way harder than the starters of yore. EVERYONE throws much harder than guys in the past. With very, very few exceptions, you simply can't have the same stamina throwing 99 as you can throwing 91. And managers have also seen the numbers on how much worse guys are the third time through the lineup.

[JayZim13]

Don Newcombe was 123-66 for the Brooklyn Dodgers from 1949-1956.
He won 27 games in 1956 and 20 in 1955.
He pitched in 3 World Series. His record was 0-4 with an 8.59 ERA.
He never could win the big game for them.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Because they throw way harder than the starters of yore. EVERYONE throws much harder than guys in the past. With very, very few exceptions, you simply can't have the same stamina throwing 99 as you can throwing 91. And managers have also seen the numbers on how much worse guys are the third time through the lineup.

Chris, I think that another factor is the variety and frequency of breaking pitches thrown by today's pitchers compared to what pitchers threw in the past, especially during the dead-ball era. WaJo and other dead-ball era pitchers relied heavily on their fast balls and maybe one other pitch (e.g., Matty with his screwball); this worked wonderfully, until the live-ball era, at which time WaJo worked to improve his other pitches, especially his curve ball, and I assume other predominantly-fast-ball pitchers had to do the same to maintain their excellence.

[frankbmd]

When they show three pitches from the same pitcher (eg fastball, slider and curve) superimposed together and all three remain on the same track for 30 feet and then spin off in three different directions, i’m Glad that I am not in the batter’s box.

I believe this accounts for both the increasing number of whiffs and the increasing incidence of Tommy John procedures.

Warren Spahn pitched his first complete game before Tommy John was born and would have had more if it wasn’t for that damned war.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Chris, I think that another factor is the variety and frequency of breaking pitches thrown by today's pitchers compared to what pitchers threw in the past, especially during the dead-ball era. WaJo and other dead-ball era pitchers relied heavily on their fast balls and maybe one other pitch (e.g., Matty with his screwball); this worked wonderfully, until the live-ball era, at which time WaJo worked to improve his other pitches, especially his curve ball, and I assume other predominantly-fast-ball pitchers had to do the same to maintain their excellence.

Absolutely true.