Proof that the market value for PSA and 'conserved' cards have dropped

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Great angle to proceed with, David. I like the way you are thinking.

I'd like to propose an alternative. First, let me say I have no skin in the registry, nor do I have six figures to buy the best of the best. Just an alternate theory:

What if, by exposing the altered cards, it actually increases the value of the remaining cards?

Now, this theory assumes the remaining graded cards are indeed unaltered and legitimate.

Let's assume there are 15 PSA 9's of a certain card, and using your values they are "worth" $1000. Now 7 of them are deemed altered, and they are removed. They are now "worth" $30, but further, by definition they are not PSA 9's. Therefore the value of a PSA 9 remains the same, and all altered cards continue to be worth $30.

Finally, there are now only 8 PSA 9's of this particular card. Does that now mean the PSA 9's are actually worth more, because there is less supply of them?

NM

[Robbie]

@drcy

David...

Please correct me if I am wrong... but to your credit, I believe that this is what you have anticipated regarding market pricing of cards, and have referred to in several prior posts.

I am no longer a card guy, however I believe as "alteration" definitions are clarified there will be a fairly dramatic change from how cards are currently valued.

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Great angle to proceed with, David. I like the way you are thinking.

I'd like to propose an alternative. First, let me say I have no skin in the registry, nor do I have six figures to buy the best of the best. Just an alternate theory:

What if, by exposing the altered cards, it actually increases the value of the remaining cards?

Now, this theory assumes the remaining graded cards are indeed unaltered and legitimate.

Let's assume there are 15 PSA 9's of a certain card, and using your values they are "worth" $1000. Now 7 of them are deemed altered, and they are removed. They are now "worth" $30, but further, by definition they are not PSA 9's. Therefore the value of a PSA 9 remains the same, and all altered cards continue to be worth $30.

Finally, there are now only 8 PSA 9's of this particular card. Does that now mean the PSA 9's are actually worth more, because there is less supply of them?

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Great angle to proceed with, David. I like the way you are thinking.

I'd like to propose an alternative. First, let me say I have no skin in the registry, nor do I have six figures to buy the best of the best. Just an alternate theory:

What if, by exposing the altered cards, it actually increases the value of the remaining cards?

Now, this theory assumes the remaining graded cards are indeed unaltered and legitimate.

Let's assume there are 15 PSA 9's of a certain card, and using your values they are "worth" $1000. Now 7 of them are deemed altered, and they are removed. They are now "worth" $30, but further, by definition they are not PSA 9's. Therefore the value of a PSA 9 remains the same, and all altered cards continue to be worth $30.

Finally, there are now only 8 PSA 9's of this particular card. Does that now mean the PSA 9's are actually worth more, because there is less supply of them?

Yep.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I am going to be amazed if PSA doesn't already know how it is going to prevent previously-graded cards from ever being regraded without disclosure. Their business model cannot survive repeated outings ala Blowout IMO. They may continue to struggle to discern all doctoring, but once they grade a card, they must retain the ability to identify it if it comes in raw again.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Why would they change? They've already dodged all responsibility and deflected it all as just a bunch of whiners on the internet.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Why would they change? They've already dodged all responsibility and deflected it all as just a bunch of whiners on the internet.

Much of it is now out of their control. BO is doing grading for them and their customers and the hobby at large, and collectors are now starting to consider PSA's grading differently and collect and valuate PSA cards differently. If BO exposure of bombshell and mundane cards continues, the hobby will have less and less confidence in PSA's grading abilities and the values for PSA graded cards will change.

I see a paradigm shift in the making. PSA sitting on their hands won't solve the problem and may exacerbate the problem if collectors and the hobby see them as dismissing and ignoring facts and problems. Why would the hobby trust or go to the grading/authenticity opinions of a service that dismisses facts that everyone sees. I think the horse has left the barn as far as PSA's "Move along, nothing to see here" philosophy goes.

At this point, I do not believe anyone with knowledge of this, including collectors who still collect and advocate for PSA, will buy and consider PSA cards in the same way as before. Even a PSA collector pausing or saying "let me double-check before I place a bid" or saying "I'll put off buying high-end cards until this settles" affects valuations and the hobby. Exuberant bidding and bidding psychology is an integral part of hobby pricing and bidding, and a slight tapping on the break or "Let me think about this first" affects things.

I also think a good number of big spenders are going to change, and likely have changed, their buying, there likely will some big exposures in major auctions, and some Registry folks will likely quit buying high end cards. If, for example, you've had several of your five or more figure cards identified as condition fakes now worth a small fraction of the value, it's going to make you pause if not quit. I don't care how much money you have, and who's going to invest in that system?

All you have to do is to go to PSA's own forum, full of PSA homers and advocates who have posted they are either not buying high end graded cards or at least pausing their buying. It's already affected their buying and valuation/consideration of PSA cards-- and that's PSA's home field.

Duly note that posters on PSA's board were as disappointed with Joe. O's "Learn to live with it, quit whining" letter as anywhere else. They are PSA fans, but see a major problem and want PSA to fix or seriously address it.

The funny thing is there likely will be a buyer's renaissance for early GAI cards. They were long left for dead, but now aren't looking so bad, at least in comparison.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

Much of it is now out of their control. BO is doing grading for them and their customers and the hobby at large, and collectors are now starting to consider PSA's grading differently and collect and valuate PSA cards differently. If BO exposure of bombshell and mundane cards continues, the hobby will have less and less confidence in PSA's grading abilities and the values for PSA graded cards will change.

I see a paradigm shift in the making. PSA sitting on their hands won't solve the problem and may exacerbate the problem if collectors and the hobby see them as dismissing and ignoring facts and problems. Why would the hobby trust or go to the grading/authenticity opinions of a service that dismisses facts that everyone sees. I think the horse has left the barn as far as PSA's "Move along, nothing to see here" philosophy goes.

I think the prices will change. Maybe slowly as the people with enough money to make buys that set prices figure it out.

I don't think PSA will change.
Or SGC, Or Beckett. They're all in the same group as far as I'm concerned.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

My first immediate thought.....was this card residing in a 6 holder 2 years ago ?

I hate to be this way but that’s my first impression of all PSA high grade cards

Me too. I know they're trimmed. That's the difference. You don't have to beat me over the head with a sludge hammer too many times. I figured it out.

It is A SCAM pure and simple. Some still have some work to do and may never see it. Because people these days are inherently stupid and they don't see their hand in front of their face or don't want to.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by steve B

Why would they change? They've already dodged all responsibility and deflected it all as just a bunch of whiners on the internet.

Which should lead any rational person with the conclusion that they don't want to change or acknowledge what they are doing.

That is the #1 thing that let's me know that they are privy to the scam and probably in on it themselves. Trying to sweep it under the rug is not a good look, IMHO but people continue to eat them up in a love fest. Are people really that dopey? I personally have never seen anything like it in my lifetime yet others could care less. THAT's what I find fascinating.

Maybe, just maybe time will tell?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Going to say "Show me the carDfax'

Any accidents? I mean trimming. When did this card/car change hands. What auctions were they sold at

Ok guys what would the CardFox look like? Maybe wearing a cardigan sweater and smoking pipe?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Which should lead any rational person with the conclusion that they don't want to change or aknowlede what they are doing.

That is the #1 thing that let's me know that they are privy to the scam and probably in on it themselves. Trying to sweep it under the rug is not a good look, IMHO but people continue to eat them up in a love fest. Are people really that dopey? I personally have never seen anything like it in my lifetime yet other could care less. THAT's what I find fascinating.

Maybe, just maybe time will tell?

Chuck the only cards I would consider buying is one from raw virgin collections. Never graded with no vcp history.

Ahh the days are long over right sir !

Was a lot of fun

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Going to say "Show me the carDfax'

Any accidents? I mean trimming. When did this card/car change hands. What auctions were they sold at

Ok guys what would the CardFox look like? Maybe wearing a cardigan sweater and smoking pipe?

shockingly...cardfax type service is actually a good idea.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Me too. I know they're trimmed. That's the difference. You don't have to beat me over the head with a sludge hammer too many times. I figured it out.

It is A SCAM pure and simple. Some still have some work to do and may never see it. Because people these days are inherently stupid and they don't see their hand in front of their face or don't want to.

Actually, no, it wasn't in a 6 holder 2 years ago.


Date

Price

Auction House

Lot Number


11/4/2017 $25,088.00 eBay (battlefield0516) 132384001645
5/14/2016 $131,450.00 Heritage Auctions 80893

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

shockingly...cardfax type service is actually a good idea.

one of many , its a long list

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Which should lead any rational person with the conclusion that they don't want to change or acknowledge what they are doing.

That is the #1 thing that let's me know that they are privy to the scam and probably in on it themselves. Trying to sweep it under the rug is not a good look, IMHO but people continue to eat them up in a love fest. Are people really that dopey? I personally have never seen anything like it in my lifetime yet others could care less. THAT's what I find fascinating.

Maybe, just maybe time will tell?

I've seen worse. Not as widespread, but worse.
The ritual satanic abuse panics of the late 80's- early 90's, where people were convicted on testimony that was often wildly absurd.
And which probably ended up making some real but less wildly insane acts go unpunished.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

one of many , its a long list

r they all "lifted" from other people?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

r they all "lifted" from other people?

nah thats deceptive .i dont say other ideas are my own or make a listing on ebay that desceptive..


'Show me the carDfax'

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

nah thats deceptive .i dont say other ideas are my own or make a listing on ebay that desceptive..


'Show me the carDfax'

Jake,

In January 2018 Spaeth started a thread “Card doctoring ....”

You might want to check out post #75,

Then stop patting yourself on the back,

And then apologize.

To avoid any suggestion of deception, the aforementioned post #75 is added below


frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is online now
Fr@nk Burke++
Member

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 5,960
Default
I find this thread troubling on a personal level, for some of you might consider me both a “card” and a “doctor”. It is amusing though to expand the concepts related to the hobby into other fields. The proposal of listing flaws on the flips instead of a numerical grade, I find interesting for two reasons.

First consider if you will old people instead of old cards. As a group we would be spared the humiliation of being graded 1, 2 or 3 with nary a 10 in sight in our retirement enclaves. Our flips would be too large to lug around though and too long to read for practical social events. I suppose we could carry credit cards with embedded chips and have access to ubiquitous chip readers though.

Second consider the field of Plastic Surgery, the true “villains” of medicine. Restoration, augmentation and flaw ablation is their bailiwick. In the world of “people flips”, their work is judged by third party graders, spouses and mirrors.
If your wife was a 4 pre-operatively before the face lift or boob job, and considers herself a 6 after the procedure, the plastic surgeon is successful and rewarded. Maybe it should just be called “Grade Bump Surgery”.

The same type of analogy could be applied to your automobile susceptible to both fender benders or a total loss as the result of an accident. The total loss or “beater” ends up in the collection at a junk yard. The fender bender though is rewarded with a trip to the Body Shop, where the goal is the ultimate grade bump to 10. Corners are restored, centering or at least symmetry is achieved and inevitably a little color is added, before delivery.

So, whether graded or not, fear not for your cardboard collection. Just remember that when purchasing cards, always remember to utter the following.


SHOW ME THE CARDFAX


But don’t ask the ladies about their plastic surgery or look for their scars, just compliment them on their beauty.

Edited to add: drcy is great
__________________

[drcy]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Jake,

In January 2018 Spaeth started a thread “Card doctoring ....”

You might want to check out post #75,

Then stop patting yourself on the back,

And then apologize.

I couldn't find the thread, but I think it says how great I am.

Don't worry, I accept everyone's apology.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Jake,

In January 2018 Spaeth started a thread “Card doctoring ....”

You might want to check out post #75,

Then stop patting yourself on the back,

And then apologize.

Hmmm...thats deceptive!

[frankbmd]

Post #67 amended. Awaiting apologies from anyone, but not holding my breath.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Post #67 amended. Awaiting apologies from anyone, but not holding my breath.

Hey Frank. I just want to apologize on behalf of anyone and everyone.
It seems like the Canadian thing to do.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Post #67 amended. Awaiting apologies from anyone, but not holding my breath.

Frank...I hope you have the patience of a cubs fan...and the breath holding capacity of a free diver!

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Frank...I hope you have the patience of a cubs fan...and the breath holding capacity of a free diver!

Neither, but I do get a Rebel Yell itch watching the Brewers in September. Cheers!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Neither, but I do get a Rebel Yell itch watching the Brewers in September. Cheers!

I have emails from earlier and i said its a long list....i used carfax analogies in all sorts of things as well as 'card on steroids' or whatever on steroids , and show me the housefax etc.......good minds think alike.. I havent seen anyone use it as tagline either..

Anyone have the idea about putting a hole punch in the trimmed cards that were turned in ......

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Hmmm...thats deceptive!

Deceptive in milking someone out of money versus who said what first on the internet is a different animal...

especially when its a friend thats taking the information and then being deceptive in selling a card on ebay....

its deceptive to compare the two....

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Deceptive in milking someone out of money versus who said what first on the internet is a different animal...

especially when its a friend thats taking the information and then being deceptive in selling a card on ebay....

its deceptive to compare the two....

im done with this bickering with you jake...my friend disclosed in her description TWICE...that the ruth is likely clubhouse. If you still have a problem with this...it will be your problem...I don't care anymore.

There are far worse d deceptions going on in the hobby these days.

[Johnny630]

The only thing that is going to definitely stop the criminals is for the buyer to stop buying !!! I wish people would wake up but they won’t they're addicted to PSA like a dope feen on opioids. They know it’s bad but they don’t care the need the High GPA or what that think is a good investment or something they can make money off of.

It’s going to crash the value of PSA 8’s-10’s just stand by......that will be everyone’s justice

[drcy]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I have emails from earlier and i said its a long list....i used carfax analogies in all sorts of things as well as 'card on steroids' or whatever on steroids , and show me the housefax etc.......good minds think alike.. I havent seen anyone use it as tagline either..

Anyone have the idea about putting a hole punch in the trimmed cards that were turned in ......

Personally-- as in my opinion, feel free disagree if you wish-- is that the PWCC et al cards be permanently defaced but still collectible. A punch hole would work fine with me.

For cards owned by the FBI, this is something they might do. Though people's fears may be that they may destroy them.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by drcy

Personally-- as in my opinion, feel free disagree if you wish-- is that the PWCC et al cards be permanently defaced but still collectible. A punch hole would work fine with me.

For cards owned by the FBI, this is something they might do. Though people's fears may be that they may destroy them.

Stamp them Altered on the back just like they stamped counterfeit on the back of the fake Rose Rookies in the 80s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Stamp them Altered on the back just like they stamped counterfeit on the back of the fake Rose Rookies in the 80s.

PSA would probably miss that too.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA would probably miss that too.

Ok I just spewed my water. That’s funny.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Ok I just spewed my water. That’s funny.

I thought PSA already stamped “bad” cards ..............with invisible ink before slabbing them with a higher grade.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The only thing that is going to definitely stop the criminals is for the buyer to stop buying !!! I wish people would wake up but they won’t they're addicted to PSA like a dope feen on opioids. They know it’s bad but they don’t care the need the High GPA or what that think is a good investment or something they can make money off of.

It’s going to crash the value of PSA 8’s-10’s just stand by......that will be everyone’s justice

I have found it fun to buy certain cards that are graded for less then the grading costs. So that way you can buy graded cards without helping them whichever company you dont like

its akin to buying a very used car for a brand of car you dont want to support for whatever reason....

[Dpeck100]

The Wagner is close to a million with more than 14 days to go. Apparently there are still a few out there that want to own expensive PSA graded cards.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-LOT64997.aspx

[perezfan]

I think quite a few people with deep pockets would like a Wagner.... regardless of who graded it.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I think quite a few people with deep pockets would like a Wagner.... regardless of who graded it.

The card market isn't going to collapse. People have too much invested. Money, time, emotion, part of their identity, history, you name it.

This will go for a stupid number and someone will say the winner paid too much and then five years from now that will look like a cheap price.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The Wagner is close to a million with more than 14 days to go. Apparently there are still a few out there that want to own expensive PSA graded cards.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-LOT64997.aspx

Speaking of this Wagner...

Would most cards with missing corners like this Wagner get a "2" grade?

So much of both top corners are missing, that a significant portion of the orange background is gone. When corner wear far exceeds the white borders, is it customary for the card to get a "2"? I've seen cards far better than this graded "1" or "AUTH".

[JeremyW]

I agree. It's a very special card & the "2" grade probably reinforces it being so special.

[Bigdaddy]

Incredible.

I'd send it back for a possible bump to a '3'.

[Rhotchkiss]

While I agree this Wagner is likely over-graded as a technical matter, I don’t think the grade matters with this card. When I get a Wagner one day, I hope it looks that good, regardless of grade.

[HRBAKER]

Beautiful card, regardless of the grade.
With this card I'm not sure the grade matters that much anyway.
That's about as a presentable low grade copy as you could hope for.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The Wagner is close to a million with more than 14 days to go. Apparently there are still a few out there that want to own expensive PSA graded cards.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_1...-LOT64997.aspx

I don't know that pointing to the most iconic card in the hobby really makes much of a point. A real Honus T206 will sell for huge money, no matter what holder it is in.

When people think that the value of high-grade PSA cards will fall. they are referring to 8s, 9s and 10s, not Wagner T206s in a "2" holder.

[RCMcKenzie]

Keep up the good work, gang. Rob

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I don't know that pointing to the most iconic card in the hobby really makes much of a point. A real Honus T206 will sell for huge money, no matter what holder it is in.

When people think that the value of high-grade PSA cards will fall. they are referring to 8s, 9s and 10s, not Wagner T206s in a "2" holder.

In my view if the card world was imploding demand for all cards would decline. You would have a real shift in the demand curve and all prices would be lower. I just don't see it. The David Hall auctions did extremely well. If you look at completed listings from PWCC you wouldn't know there was an issue.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?item...g=200&_fosrp=1


Here is the link to their completed sales. If there was a bear market you would see it and you don't.

In the same Mile High auction there is a 58 Topps Mantle PSA 9 that is at nearly 19k. I don't have VCP and looked at the SMR and they have it at $22k and the only sale I saw was from 2014 and it was just over 21k.

The Mantle PSA 8 that most on this board screamed was shilled and how disgusting that a zero feedback bidder won. The person has a feedback rating now of 1 and has only bid on one item.

I think this is just going to be another round of disappointment for those that don't like PSA and grading in general.

PSA's stock was supposed to implode and instead has screamed north and is up nearly 50% since the story broke. Their sales are through the roof and their backlog is the largest in company history. It is hard for me to see a scenario where this turns on a dime.

[Rhotchkiss]

DPeck, I feel that vintage (1920 and older) prices in the last two pwcc auctions have been noticeable low, most especially in the last auction. I attribute this to vintage collectors on this and a few other hobby boards either boycotting altogether (like I am), or refusing to chase cards knowing they may be shilled. In fact, the last two vintage offerings for pwcc have been weak, which again I attribute to consignors boycotting. Maybe it’s not boycott, but a coincidence. But I choose to believe it’s the former and that consumership can make a difference/statement through buying/consigning, or curbing/ceasing, habits.

I encourage anyone who has an issue with PSA, of PWCC or any TPG or auction house, to at the least, express that issue with their wallet and choices, however that manifests. Don’t consign. Don’t bid. Don’t submit. Don’t collect. Stating “nothing is changing” on a chat board will only serve to help fulfill that very statement. Indeed, choosing to cease posting such statements is a consumership action we can all take as a stance against this....

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

DPeck, I feel that vintage (1920 and older) prices in the last two pwcc auctions have been noticeable low, most especially in the last auction. I attribute this to vintage collectors on this and a few other hobby boards either boycotting altogether (like I am), or refusing to chase cards knowing they may be shilled. In fact, the last two vintage offerings for pwcc have been weak, which again I attribute to consignors boycotting. Maybe it’s not boycott, but a coincidence. But I choose to believe it’s the former and that consumership can make a difference/statement through buying/consigning, or curbing/ceasing, habits.

I encourage anyone who has an issue with PSA, of PWCC or any TPG or auction house, to at the least, express that issue with their wallet and choices, however that manifests. Don’t consign. Don’t bid. Don’t submit. Don’t collect. Stating “nothing is changing” on a chat board will only serve to help fulfill that very statement. Indeed, choosing to cease posting such statements is a consumership action we can all take as a stance against this....

Agree stuff is changing....it’s going down in higher graded PSA 8’s-10’s are going to crash cards below ExMt-Nrmnt will be fine especially raw.

I do not believe many of the sold listing are Real Sales. The Vault in my Mind is a Buy Back Cover for their clients....Pump up if a dummie doesn't come in late and take the high bid card goes back in the vault to be repeated at a later date.
I guess it must be legal to do but who knows ???

[MULLINS5]

"In my view if the card world was imploding demand for all cards would decline."

Disagree.

The PSA empire was built on grading commons - not icons.

[drcy]

I think there will be a decline, but even if not there will be a shift. In particular, high-grade cards and pricing will change.

I mean, what is the percentage of high grade Pre-War cards in holders that are altered? 50%? More? I don't know, though my guess would be more. People may still want and collect and pay fair money for these cards, even if they know they might be altered, but someone would have to be either entirely ignorant or brain dead to pay the same premium as before-- especially considering many of these altered cards are being exposed daily and, upon exposure, their value drops by, what?, a factor of 50 in one second. I suspect this will also happen with modern cards, even today's. And I expect a sizable enough number of collectors to leave that market altogether.

"What would I pay for a really good looking card that has been altered or restored and would be labeled as such?" That's how many will start pricing high-grade cards.

As I've regularly said, it doesn't take everyone changing their pricing considerations and collecting habits to shift the market, just a sizable percentage. That there are some "Registry holdouts" is neither here nor there.

In the future, cards clearly identified and identifiable as unaltered may get big premiums. This may happen in today's cards and inserts, where box breaks are filmed live. Put the card directly in a holder with tamper-evident seal, photograph it and send it to PSA or whomever.

Butt of many This is Spinal Tap jokes originally, but SCDAuthentic had a Grade 11 for cards that came directly from packs.

And once there are sales of sets or collections, or even single cards, that have been prominently advertised to be "proven to be unaltered" and/or "rare and highest graded proven unaltered cards," that will definitely catch some hobby collecting awareness. All those unproven to be unaltered PSs 9s and 10s in PSA holders may suddenly be considered by the hobby to be "nice but second tier" in the collecting echelon. Wouldn't be surprised if PSA and SGC come out with a "Straight from pack" designation for their holders.

I promise you that once a big auction house or eBay seller offered a prominently advertised and noticed sale of high graded and graded "known to be unaltered cards" (ala documented as straight from packs, or otherwise shown), it will change collecting minds and tastes. Once collectors boast, as they like to, about owning the "highest graded proven to be unaltered" card or set, hobby minds and tastes will change.

I think BO's exposure should continue forever, because it keeps the hobby honest and aware, and gives sanity and common sense to people buying potentially altered cards. As I said elsewhere, BO and others exposing misidentifications, alterations and misgrades are part of the grading. Obviously, PSA is unable and/or unwilling to proper authentication and grading on their own. In the area of highest grade Pre-War cards, their error rate may prove to be higher than 50%. Which, if that is the case, common sense and anyone who got a C- or above in middle school Logic for Dummies class would tell a collector to go by the opposite of their opinion because the complete opposite is more likely to be correct. Heck, I think even someone who got a D and skipped half the classes could figure out that one.

And, considering the PR releases and intuitional stance that people should ignore it and quit whining and that it's not an issue of concern for them and their stockholders and at times throwing up their hands and saying "What do you expect from us?" and only addressing cards that are officially outed and choosing not to remove outed cards from their database, a question to ask is if they are even attempting to correctly grade cards? At this point, is correctly labeled cards even a concern, or their main concern? If it is, they'd better do a better job of demonstrating it. As far as I saw, Joe O's letter's stated "We don't know how to do it, so get over it." Even PSA forum members were shocked and disappointed at that response. One said that at the very least it was tone-deaf to the concerns of their customers.

It's pretty obvious that PSA doesn't want to correctly grade all the cards out there. They want to have a way they can avoid doing it. And, again, even that D middle school student who skipped half the classes can see that "We are a company that correctly grades your cards" and "We are a company trying to avoid assigning correct grades to cards" are at odds with each other.

And even that very mentality existing in their grading model should point to a company you don't rely on for correct grading. Forget the issue of if they can do it, because they don't even want to do it. Their PR statements and actions actually say "Our business model is that we don't want to have to correctly grade all those cards out there in holders. It would be against our business and grading model to have to correctly grade them."

PSA and their cadre of "Buy the label even though it's wrong" collectors has become the bizarro world of grading.

Seinfeld: Bizarro Jerry

Or, for an even better comparison, Attorney Lionel Hutz in The Simpsons

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Perhaps by then, the PSA Slab will be rendered meaningless (or even seen as a detriment).

They should always maintain their meaning: simple and attractive plastic slabs that allow you to collect cards that are different sizes and designs and stack them neatly on top of one another. You can even put an altered card in one of these and its plastic casing allows it to conform nicely to the standards of your set. I always liked this about PSA, and that their slabs are nice and thin.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

...what is the percentage of high grade Pre-War cards in holders that are altered? 50%? More? I don't know, though my guess would be more.

I felt that for NM T206 cards it was right at 99.9 %

I once drank too much wine and won a NM T206 black cap Matty. I was thrilled to discover it had undisclosed paper loss, which clearly violated the grade. It was also clearly trimmed;however, bringing that to the AH's attention would have gotten me nowhere, other than for them to ask PSA to sharpen their knives.