1949 Bowman Duke Snider Rookie

[samosa4u]

Thank you for your posts everyone!

I knew this topic did not belong in the prewar section, but I still decided to post it here because I thought it'll get more attention (since everybody hangs out here).

There was a time in New York when people would ask "who is your favorite - Duke, Mays or Mantle?" I just assumed he was on their level then. I did not know that his career went to hell when his team moved to California. I just read now that when Duke played his first home opener in Cali, Mays pointed at the right field wall and told him that he was effed! It looks like the right field wall in Brooklyn was short.

Now I don't own a Duke Snider rookie (although I would like to!) I just posted that PSA 7 because I thought it looked beautiful and was surprised how cheap it sold for.

If what Leon said is true, then that's very bad! Why do we even have card grading in the first place when these guys have no clue what the eff they are doing?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well he also got injured at age 31 going from 5 consecutive 40 home run seasons to only breaking 20 one more time in his career, and he never played a full season again after that, and not at the level he had previously enjoyed. When you don't top 400 AB's in a season for half your career it does put a damper on your numbers. In his prime I don't think the comparison to Mantle and Mays was as egregious as it is now, looking back at their careers in total. He had three years with an OPS of over 1.000 and a 4th at .997 before he got hurt. the number of guys who have done that is pretty small. Again his career .900+ ops is pretty damn rare and was only drug down that far by him being a shadow of his former self, but where it really hurt him is in the counting numbers.

[tedzan]

First, I will start with this: twice I've met the Duke, got his autograph, and had some nice conversations with him.
He was a real classy guy, very friendly, and a true gentleman.

OK, let's talk numbers..........comparing Mickey, Willie, and the Duke

Regular season Stats:

BA = .295 to .302 (not much difference between them)

SLG = .540 to .557

OPS = .919 to .977

Individual World Series Stats:

Snider.....BA = .286, SLG = .594, OPS = .945

Mantle....BA = .257, SLG = .535, OPS = .908

Mays...….BA = .247, SLG = .337, OPS = .660


Therefore, you guys, that have been slighting Snider in your comments here, are totally uninformed. And, I will tell
you what is real....I followed Snider's career from 1949 to 1957 while he played in Brooklyn.

The Duke averaged 110 RBI's per year for those 9 years. Batted .306, and his OPS average = .966

You had to see him play the game to really appreciate him.

P.S.….Snider graduated from Compton H.S. in California. He excelled in all sports, and especially Football.
Stay tuned for my great story regarding his FB feat.

By the way, guys....I'm a Yankees fan. But, having seen the Duke play all those years, I have a deep respect for him.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Yastrzemski Sports]

I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.

[JackW]

Bill James (among others) has written how the "I saw him play" argument is among the most often used yet one of the most fallible endorsements a person can make on behalf of a player. We all do it, but it really has no place in trying to identify the best player within a group of players.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.

Again though, at his peak he was elite 9.3, 8.3, 8.6, 7.6 even if he becomes a 5 WAR guy until he's 35 that alters his career numbers enormously including roughly 20 points to his career WAR. Don't get me wrong even at 86.4 he's not Mantle or Mays, but he's definitely looked upon differently. His health really was his limiting factor. He had 407 career home runs. 316 by age 30. 91 after. 316 Home runs by age 30 puts you in pretty special company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion, Snider is a definite notch below if you consider only the 50s and not really in the same discussion if you consider the whole career, as he did next to nothing in the 60s and was gone by 1964. Still, a mid tier HOFer.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

I like using the WAR stat which takes all aspects of a player’s game and puts it into a number

Mays 156.4 (5th all time)
Mantle 110.3 (20th all time)
Snider 66.4 (131 all time)

You can isolate a stat or two and show that he somehow compares to the others. But he doesn’t. Sniders lifetime stats are most comparable to those of Jim Edmonds (60.4 WAR). Snider is a HOF player all the way. But Mantle and Mays are upper echelon elite players.

You like to use WAR (or is it actually a new-speak term called "war-p") which at best is only an approximation of available data which is made up of imprecise assumptions.

I choose OPS as a more meaningful stat to gauge a ballplayer's offensive worth to his team. Because that's what WINS games.

Mays' OPS # is .941 and Snider's OPS # is .919; however, Snider's value to the Dodgers during the regular seasons (1949 - 1959) was amazing. Especially in World Series
play where Snider's numbers are significantly greater than Mays' numbers in World Series play.

Incidentally, you'll get no arguments from me regarding Mickey Mantle. I grew up seeing him play (watching TV and live at Yankee Stadium). Mickey was my idol.


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Yastrzemski Sports]

It’s interesting that you won’t argue Mantle vs Duke but have plenty of argument for Willie vs Duke. Willie was clearly the best of the 3. Some would argue that Mays was the greatest player of all time with his defense taken into the equation - and is in most people’s top 3.

No disrespect to the career and legacy of Duke Snider who is a well deserved HOF member. But he’s not in the same class as the others.

Originally Posted by tedzan

You like to use WAR (or is it actually a new-speak term called "war-p") which at best is only an approximation of available data which is made up of imprecise assumptions.

I choose OPS as a more meaningful stat to gauge a ballplayer's offensive worth to his team. Because that's what WINS games.

Mays' OPS # is .941 and Snider's OPS # is .919; however, Snider's value to the Dodgers during the regular seasons (1949 - 1959) was amazing. Especially in World Series
play where Snider's numbers are significantly greater than Mays' numbers in World Series play.

Incidentally, you'll get no arguments from me regarding Mickey Mantle. I grew up seeing him play (watching TV and live at Yankee Stadium). Mickey was my idol.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't see ranking Mays any lower than 5th. Mantle is an interesting case depending on how much you value his phenomenal on base percentage due to walks, but he is obviously a top 20 player if not significantly higher. Snider, I can't see higher than maybe 50-60.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

P.S.….Snider graduated from Compton H.S. in California. He excelled in all sports, and especially Football.

Stay tuned for my great story regarding his FB feat.

.

One more say....and then I'll go away.

This story will be appreciated by the few Duke Snider fans on this thread.

I am sure some of you remember Pete Rozelle, NFL Commissioner (1960 - 1989). Rozelle and Snider were classmates at Compton High School in the early 1940's.

Circa 1970's, a Sports reporter was "stunned" by Pete Rozelle's answer when he asked him….. "what was the most exciting play that he had seen in all his years in
Football ?"

Pete smiled and he replied...."In 1944, his High School was playing for the Championship, and with less than 10 seconds left in the game, Duke Snider (QB) threw
a perfect 63-yard pass to his receiver to win the game and Compton High School won the Championship that year."

Can you imagine.....an 18-year old throwing a FB approx. 2/3 rds the length of a Football field at the end of the game and making an accurate pass to his receiver.

This is absolutely an unbelievable performance. Especially for an athlete so young. Anyhow, I'm glad he chose BB for his career.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Paul S]

Ted, I can believe everything you wrote in this post...except for Pete Rozelle smiling

Originally Posted by tedzan

One more say....and then I'll go away.

This story will be appreciated by the few Duke Snider fans on this thread.

I am sure some of you remember Pete Rozelle, NFL Commissioner (1960 - 1989). Rozelle and Snider were classmates at Compton High School in the early 1940's.

Circa 1970's, a Sports reporter was "stunned" by Pete Rozelle's answer when he asked him….. "what was the most exciting play that he had seen in all his years in
Football ?"

Pete smiled and he replied...."In 1944, his High School was playing for the Championship, and with less than 10 seconds left in the game, Duke Snider (QB) threw
a perfect 63-yard pass to his receiver to win the game and Compton High School won the Championship that year."

Can you imagine.....an 18-year old throwing a FB approx. 2/3 rds the length of a Football field at the end of the game and making an accurate pass to his receiver.

This is absolutely an unbelievable performance. Especially for an athlete so young. Anyhow, I'm glad he chose BB for his career.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.