Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Question - what did adult hobbyists find to talk about back in the 1980’s and 90’s when there were no TPG’s and no internet message boards?

They wrote letters to hobby publications like Sports Collectors Digest, which was the combined equivalent of eBay, Net54, and Blowout when I got seriously back into the hobby in 1991. Plus local card shops and local card shows, where most of the buying and selling that's now done online took place.

Here's one of my hobby history posts that details a big controversy over the commercialization of the hobby that took place in 1968-69. A lot of these discussions have been going on for a long time.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=234476

Also, see these articles in SCD about fake autographs and the problems with PSA -- from 1996, 23 years ago. They were raising many of the same issues we're dealing with today.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271015

Originally Posted by jchcollins

And with such substantial less risk of being caught at doing something so outrageous as altering old baseball cards to make them look better - how do we not know or even assume that the level of alteration going on back then was WAY more prevalent than what we are seeing with PWCC today? This is after all ostensibly why PSA was even founded.

See this post about the first wave of counterfeit cards to appear in the hobby, in 1972-74. Before that there wasn't enough money in the hobby to justify anybody going to the trouble to fake stuff. But the hobby's steady growth in the 1970s (corresponding with the first baby boomers getting enough disposable income to try to recreate their childhoods) brought in a lot more money, and with it the crooks.

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262868

[GasHouseGang]

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

[drcy]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Who would have imagined Alan "Mr Mint" Rosen would have been the voice of reason back in 1996. In that SCD article he says, "I believe there is a true need for a service, to tell someone that the card is not trimmed, to tell someone it's not fake or doctored in any way or bleached. That would be a great service for the hobby. But once you put that little number on it, that creates greed. And we don't need that right now. We need to bring customers back in, not alienate them."

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

David,

I still use "pack fresh" (if they are) when describing cards, especially lots. I try to provide 'guidance' as to the centering of the cards, but I don't always get into specific OCs (80/20, 70/30, etc). I usually scan a 'sampling' of the cards as an indication. I would also note if there were gum stains on x number or y% of the cards. Again, mostly for lots. Technically, they are not "mint", but I rarely go higher than NM when trying to specify a grade anyway.

Individual cards get the 'high scan treatment' with a statement of grade without considering centering and noting any defects as needed. Most can tell how well the card is or isn't centered and judge on their own what the means to them.

I get a lot of "exactly as" or "better than" described, which may mean I leave money on the table, but oh well. My piece of mind and not having to worry about nit picking is worth the cost.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by drcy

Back in the day, Rosen also had an interesting definition of Mint: from the pack fresh. That meant the card be off center, have a print defect, etc-- but it had to be as fresh as if it was just pulled from the pack. As I write, I kinda like that definition.

I met him briefly once, and helped work a table across from him at a show (for the show promoter)

That idea of the preservation of the card being the important part is probably the only thing we ever had in common. He did know his cards though...

[JohnP0621]

First let me start by saying that I have also been a long time collector and I am not happy with the current situation and fraud . I mostly collect Prewar T205-T206, Goudey etc and some 50s-60s stars Mantle , Mays , Aaron etc
95 % of my cards are graded Psa - SGC grades 3-5 . I like my cards graded and protected .I have approx 400-450 cards and My guess wound be that none of them are altered or trimmed. A lot of them I bought raw and sent in myself for grading and the rest I bought from reputable dealers at shows , EBay and right here on Net 54. I enjoy this hobby and am not going to let a few dishonest A-Holes ruin my enjoyment. I do not have high end cards or need the best example or highest graded. The OP and many others are suggesting that the whole Hobby is a criminal enterprise and I totally disagree . There are many , many more descent hobbyists and sellers then crooks. You just need to know who your dealing with.

John P

[Jim65]

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

Exactly Well Said +1

I believe in the not to distant future that PSA’s Slabs/Opinions will be worth far less to the market then they are currently.

I’ve said this for years, Registry and Pop Report are two of their biggest money making marketing tools. Both are inaccurate and total BS

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Jim65

I hope the scandal chases all the douchebags away. The people who smoked cigars, drank expensive wine, drank all the weird coffee because it was hip, then moved on to the next fad.

A lot of the morons who have to have the #1 rated set in the registry but couldn't tell you what team the players played for. The guys who spend $20,000 for a 1/1 of the biggest prospect, just to brag on YouTube but couldn't pick that player out of a lineup or even pronounce his name correctly.

I wouldn't miss any of those assholes.

100% Facts!! I'd rather buy a 1/1 that's 100+ years old for $25. I wouldn't mind being #1 on the Registry when it comes to rarity.