Everyone's favorite auction house

[Joe Hunter]

I don't think the sign could have undergone that degree of transformation using just water as the solvent.

[Republicaninmass]

Ok, can he really pull it the last day...no

BUT to play devil's advocate....

And I quote

"
Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. *Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request."


Edited
My first reaction


A bunch of feel good horseshit, you can see that's erased from the moon

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I don't think the sign could have undergone that degree of transformation using just water as the solvent.

Thanks, Joe, I tend to agree with you, but Al's consignor claims otherwise. Another question I have is this: if the transformation was accomplished purely with the removal of rust and oxidated(?) material, even if aided by chemicals or other means, would that still be acceptable as a method of "cleaning" that wouldn't need to be disclosed? In other words: no additions, no coverings, no restoration, just the removal of material original to the piece, deteriorated and otherwise. Is that OK?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Thanks, Joe, I tend to agree with you, but Al's consignor claims otherwise. Another question I have is this: if the transformation was accomplished purely with the removal of rust and oxidated(?) material, even if aided by chemicals or other means, would that still be acceptable as a method of "cleaning" that wouldn't need to be disclosed? In other words: no additions, no coverings, no restoration, just the removal of material original to the piece, deteriorated and otherwise. Is that OK?

Hank it seems to me that if something is OK, which it may well be, that's all the more reason TO disclose it; after all, what's the downside of letting potential bidders know something generally considered acceptable was done so they can make a fully informed decision?

Not specific to this case, but people always seem to trip over themselves trying to explain why a certain thing done to a card or other item is perfectly acceptable, yet they won't disclose it. And yes one can take this to an extreme silly hypothetical (nobody would disclose that they blew off a piece of dust and nobody would argue that they should) but that's not a helpful response.

PS nothing changes, we had the same discussion about the Keeler cabinet card in Mastro in 2004 or thereabouts.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PS nothing changes, we had the same discussion about the Keeler cabinet card in Mastro in 2004 or thereabouts.

I don't remember that discussion, I might not have been a member then. Is cleaning supposed to always be disclosed when it comes to cards, no matter what the extent or methods? And yes, a lot of it does seem to come down to a matter of degree, but if I was the consignor of the sign and all I did was wipe it down with water, I don't think I'd feel the need to disclose that fact. If you say why not, I could say because it might raise the question of what else I did to it, or make bidders wonder if the rust might come back, or any other reason I could cook up to think the price might be affected by me volunteering that information. I would answer why should I? I cleaned lots of stuff when I was a dealer, I don't think I ever mentioned it or told an auction house when I consigned it. That didn't seem relevant or important, and certainly not unethical.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's never easy to draw lines especially in the gray area, and yes it probably comes down to a case by case basis. I guess if I were to try to articulate a general rule, it would be along the lines of if something might matter to a non-trivial percentage of potential bidders, it should be disclosed. Of course there's a lot of play in that formulation too.

[2dueces]

You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies criticizing the way kids dress today. Don’t you have any thing better to do with your time beside bitch about grades, pencil marks and dirty signs. The OCD on this forum is strong. Last time I read such stupidity here was the 1000 post bitch session when SGC changed its flip header color. The movie Idocracy moves closer to reality here.

[Hankphenom]

We love you, too, Joe. But let me ask you this: why in the world would I give a shit what you think about anything?

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

We love you, too, Joe. But let me ask you this: why in the world would I give a shit what you think about anything?

No reason to care what I think. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

[Joe Hunter]

I’m a collector of vintage bobble heads. Disclosure of bobble head restoration is expected of a seller. It’s certainly not taboo to restore a bobble head; in fact, a professionally restored doll can bring probably 80-90 % of the same doll in unrestored condition. But, the buyer needs to know this, up front. I would say the same would apply to metal signs.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I’m a collector of vintage bobble heads. Disclosure of bobble head restoration is expected of a seller. It’s certainly not taboo to restore a bobble head; in fact, a professionally restored doll can bring probably 80-90 % of the same doll in unrestored condition. But, the buyer needs to know this, up front. I would say the same would apply to metal signs.

If someone spilled coke on a bobble head back in the day, and you wiped the brown stain off with a wet cloth, would you disclose the “restoration”? Seems a bit inconsequential...

With regard to metal signs, of course any restoration in the form in-Painting, reinforcements or touch-ups should be disclosed. This was water, and the minute he found out, Al personally reached out to each bidder directly, giving them the option to retract. Obviously none felt the need.

This thread reminds me of an annoying old commercial

[RedsFan1941]

people sure are twisting themselves into knots in this thread. fun to watch. the power of water and cotton balls. who knew?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

people sure are twisting themselves into knots in this thread. fun to watch. the power of water and cotton balls. who knew?

Cotton ball futures are up!

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the intent of the alteration, or its effect on the grade, are irrelevant. Although as previously stated I understand and am sympathetic to the predicament Al found himself in (which he probably could have avoided by examining the card more closely to begin with, but whatever), in my opinion when you stake out a clear and unequivocal position (I won't sell an altered card) you should stick to it. Period. Yes, it royally sucked that it came up on the last day of the auction, but to me the effort to finesse the situation and make exceptions on the fly was not the right approach. Again, just my opinion, and said with all respect and continued high regard for Al and LOTG.

[Yoda]

I consigned a bunch of cards to Al for his auction just ended. Among them was a nice T206 common graded 6.5 by PSA. The card looked fine, it was graded, so I didn't give it a*second thought. Soon after I had a call from Al saying he could not put it in the auction because it was trimmed. i expressed my appreciation to him for spotting the trim, but wondered secretly how in the hell
does he find the time, as a one man band, to go over all the items in such fine detail as to determine alterations and live up to his pledge? Does the man ever sleep? More importantly, it shows the moral force Al brings to his business, something sadly missing in the hobby today and perhaps the country at large.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Joe Hunter

I don't think the sign could have undergone that degree of transformation using just water as the solvent.

i think most objective people would agree with you.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

i think most objective people would agree with you.

Are you guys really going to make me get some stuff from the garage and learn how to post videos?

[steve B]

Anyone selling commercially, especially an auction house has a challenge when it comes to this stuff.

We all want clear policies on altered stuff, but can't agree on what is an alteration.

Writing something that is clear and concise, and also takes into account the wide variety of alterations out there seems to me a nearly impossible task.
way back, some cards were often cut down to fit the pages available at the time. No attempt at fraud, as most at that time were worth maybe $2. People just wanted to put them in pages and enjoy them. (Tall T206s and e-90-1s especially)
Then there's the moser sort of trimming that gets hidden by having the card graded, and is obviously intentional fraud.

The erasure to me falls somewhere in the middle.
Is it an alteration? YES.
Is it non- obvious and hiding behind the slab? NO,
it's obvious that it was done, who would spend that sort of money on a card without taking a good look at it. (I suppose there are some blind collectors, good on them for giving it a go. It seems extra challenging)

Would it have been better if it was mentioned right at the start? YES. Does it make sense that someone might not feel the need to mention the obvious? YES.

To use the car analogy, if I'm selling a junker that is missing a door, I don't think it would really be necessary to point it out.

If you're buying fairly expensive cards based on no more than a casual glance.... 1 slow the _ down and look. 2 Where the heck are you when I'm selling? (Yeah, my stuff to sell is too cheap, but still... )

[bobfreedman]

Guys, I was the consignor and I cleaned it with distilled water ONLY. I actually took a picture of the process because I was so surprise how easily it came off. Here it is,

I know skeptics will always be skeptics but judge for yourself. This will be my one and only post about this as I feel that this board has a lynch mob mentality.

[calvindog]

Bob, do you provide the software to LOTG?

[frankbmd]

When can I bring my Honda over for a wash?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

When can I bring my Honda over for a wash?

Put down the pitchfork, son.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Guys, I was the consignor and I cleaned it with distilled water ONLY. I actually took a picture of the process because I was so surprise how easily it came off. Here it is,

I know skeptics will always be skeptics but judge for yourself. This will be my one and only post about this as I feel that this board has a lynch mob mentality.

Thanks for coming in, I hope you can understand a certain amount of skepticism here considering the dramatic results of your efforts both in appearance and auction results, not to mention the recent controversies on the card side. By drawing attention to the potential in both respects, I think this episode will be helpful to a number of people and has value for that reason. There have been a number of Net54 threads that turned ugly and personal, no doubt, a risk our esteemed admin has policed admirably, in my opinion, but ascribing a "lynch mob mentality" to the entire board is ridiculous, and I don't think many of us would be here if that was the case. In fact, I don't think that kind of board would be around very long. Having said that, as in other areas of my life, when I jump in here I put on my big boy pants and am ready to go toe to toe with whatever comes forth. As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[RedsFan1941]

bob should change his user name to Anne Sullivan.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

bob should change his user name to Anne Sullivan.

Was she the deaf, dumb and blind one or the miracle worker?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I leave it to Burkett to improve the lyric.

Wonder of wonders
Miracle of miracles
Bob took a sign that was rusted brown
Cotton and water and
Miracle of miracles
It's now the finest sign around

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bobfreedman

Guys, I was the consignor and I cleaned it with distilled water ONLY. I actually took a picture of the process because I was so surprise how easily it came off. Here it is,

I know skeptics will always be skeptics but judge for yourself. This will be my one and only post about this as I feel that this board has a lynch mob mentality.

I've used the same method (distilled water and cotton swabs) to wipe a bunch of crud off a 19th century cabinet. I took before and after pictures of the cabinet that show the crud removed from the picture. It was night and day and I really didn't consider it altering because the only thing done was the removal of dirt and grime with distilled water. I have no intention of selling the cabinet, however IF I do, I'll have no problem fully disclosing this (with the before and after pictures and the dirty cotton swabs).

[Snapolit1]

What's with the cotton swabs anyway. I'd be afraid remnants of cotton would adhere to the metal and be hard to get off. I'd opt for an extremely soft rag of some sort.

In event, a simple google search of "how a clean rust off an old metal sign" reveals a plethora of ways to remove rust from an old metal sign. If cotton and water does the trick there's an awful lot of antique folks out there who are wasting time with vinegar and other substances.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

What's with the cotton swabs anyway. I'd be afraid remnants of cotton would adhere to the metal and be hard to get off. I'd opt for an extremely soft rag of some sort.

In event, a simple google search of "how a clean rust off an old metal sign" reveals a plethora of ways to remove rust from an old metal sign. If cotton and water does the trick there's an awful lot of antique folks out there who are wasting time with vinegar and other substances.

Water will remove the loose filth and some of the worst scaly rust as well as some rust stains on the paint. But it doesn't remove the actual corrosion.
Vinegar will remove some of the actually corroded bits. That plus wax or oil will help prevent the rust from getting worse.

[brianp-beme]

To respond to the title of this thread I really like Brockelman Auctions.

brianp(arker)-beme

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by steve B

Water will remove the loose filth and some of the worst scaly rust as well as some rust stains on the paint. But it doesn't remove the actual corrosion.
Vinegar will remove some of the actually corroded bits. That plus wax or oil will help prevent the rust from getting worse.

Great information, thank you. And wow, that Reach sign is one gorgeous piece of signage!

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've used the same method (distilled water and cotton swabs) to wipe a bunch of crud off a 19th century cabinet. I took before and after pictures of the cabinet that show the crud removed from the picture. It was night and day and I really didn't consider it altering because the only thing done was the removal of dirt and grime with distilled water. I have no intention of selling the cabinet, however IF I do, I'll have no problem fully disclosing this (with the before and after pictures and the dirty cotton swabs).

Shame on you Fred. One more infraction like this and you will have to turn in you Old Judge Club membership card and the secret decoder ring.