My proposal

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by drcy

My proposal on this issue is that group of experts develop techniques and the use of scientific technology that can examine cards and judge if they have been altered. There are very sophisticated techniques used in other areas (art, antique artifacts) but not used in the sports hobby.

I envision the examination being done on expensive cards. At some point, enough expansive cards will have been examined that the onus will be on those who choose not to have theirs examined.

Documentation of provenance will be required.

I would prefer it not to be another $$-making business, as that obviously corrupts things, but more of an academic, non-profit entity. But that's lesser of an issue, as the development and use of the technology is what is important. And if grading companies wish to adopt the techniques that is fine.

As someone mentioned, it would be more of a scientific study giving reports, rather than a 'purple sticker' opinion service.

If you want more background on scientific methods used in different areas, see the following book.

You make good points David - I had an art background before my law background and have always respected your opinions on that end. I get where you're coming from and support it. I want to say there should be a human element to this but PSA sucks. Bring on the bots.

[TimCarrollArt]

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but how realistic would it be for a company to leave off the grades and give only facts from the examination? Example: "card measures exactly 2.48" x 3.5"; centering 52/48 L/R, 54/46 T/B; print defect near top left corner; 7/8 inch crease on left arm; chipping on back right edge".

No adjectives necessary. No "looks better than a 3" listings. A reputable, 3rd party, semi-scientific examination that lays out exactly what a card is - good or bad.

It would be up to the buyers to take a closer look, interpret that information, and make a judgement call on the card's value.

[packs]

Does technology really need to be brought into this? No one will ever convince me that the alterations aren't clear if you're actually looking for them. The issue seems to be with the name on the submission form more than anything else.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by TimCarrollArt

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but how realistic would it be for a company to leave off the grades and give only facts from the examination? Example: "card measures exactly 2.48" x 3.5"; centering 52/48 L/R, 54/46 T/B; print defect near top left corner; 7/8 inch crease on left arm; chipping on back right edge".

No adjectives necessary. No "looks better than a 3" listings. A reputable, 3rd party, semi-scientific examination that lays out exactly what a card is - good or bad.

It would be up to the buyers to take a closer look, interpret that information, and make a judgement call on the card's value.

This has me thinking about a grading system similar to GIA for diamonds. Instead of having a single numeric grade, each attribute would be rated on its own scale. Sure, it adds complexity. But it would somewhat normalize lopsided characteristics that end up creating a lot of confusion with single numeric grades.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

This has me thinking about a grading system similar to GIA for diamonds. Instead of having a single numeric grade, each attribute would be rated on its own scale. Sure, it adds complexity. But it would somewhat normalize lopsided characteristics that end up creating a lot of confusion with single numeric grades.

A great idea, IMO...

It takes away the subjectivity currently plaguing PSA and the TPGs. It also might actually help to reduce favorable grades granted to certain submitters.

In order for any new grading service to endure, it will have to present significant differences from PSA. Any new entry who simply emulates PSA's grading system is destined for failure.

There needs to be a fact-based alternative that offers a true difference from PSA and eliminates the subjective aspect. If it ever became the predominant TPG, such a system would severely reduce the "earnings" of Card Doctors, and would serve as a huge deterrent. Hope it someday comes about.

[Throttlesteer]

If someone wants to bankroll it, I can assemble a business plan. Bringing transparency to the card's attributes would also allow people to choose those that are personally important to them (e.g. centering, corners, etc..) Instead of a blanket VG 3, you could have a similar system for rating inclusions. Creases and wrinkles could be rated like gemstone inclusions. You could also account for things like diamond cuts or large borders. Just typing as I think.

[Bocabirdman]

And how much time could be devoted to each card to achieve this multi-faceted grade?

[Throttlesteer]

More than the 20-30 seconds you're paying good money for now. The right tools will greatly help the efficiency of the process.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by TimCarrollArt

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but how realistic would it be for a company to leave off the grades and give only facts from the examination? Example: "card measures exactly 2.48" x 3.5"; centering 52/48 L/R, 54/46 T/B; print defect near top left corner; 7/8 inch crease on left arm; chipping on back right edge".

No adjectives necessary. No "looks better than a 3" listings. A reputable, 3rd party, semi-scientific examination that lays out exactly what a card is - good or bad.

It would be up to the buyers to take a closer look, interpret that information, and make a judgement call on the card's value.

I agree. I don't need a third party to weigh in on eye appeal. I want a service to review for forgeries and alterations. Relying on the naked eye alone isn't helpful either. I can do that myself.

I also think a service should be comfortable with punting on items. If a card's dimensions are a little short, it might be within the margin of error, but it could also be trimmed. If you aren't 100% certain that it is unaltered, don't authenticate it and issue a refund on the grading fees.