PWCC is alive and well

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Thoughts on my second and third points

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

[BeanTown]

As much as I don't like PWCC, it seemed to be normal bidding. That postcard is super rare and is too rare for its own good. It went too cheap IMHO and the consignor would have dine much better with a reputable AH. Congrats too whoever won it. The Max Stein was pretty goid value as well. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, to see lower prices realized on premium cards. PWCC days of manipulation or turning a blind eye to stuff are over (I hope). Two years or less, they be gone.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect.

That's my assumption as well.

I am very, very, very far from convinced that there are undetectable serious alterations. I suspect that many to most of these undetected alterations are obvious if examined correctly.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

What I've said many times over the years. If there's nothing wrong with something, then why the reluctance to disclose it? And, of course, the answer is because the person knows there's something wrong with it-- or, more specifically, it lowers the market value. If it raised the value they would say it underlined and in bold, and often in the auction title.

For example: --->> PROFESSIONALL CLEANED!!!!! <<-----

[silvor]

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by silvor

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

[silvor]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by silvor

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

And Mastro turned into Legendary....before they left. We won't be able to see the ramifications until the indictments come down. I don't think PWCC will perform "business as usual". Hard to say. Too many people are leery, and that CAN NOT be a good thing.

[Johnny630]

Only a matter of time till people stop pulling big money out of their pockets for cards like its burning a hole in it. This is a total sellers market...Much better times to buy are on the horizon/

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by silvor

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

Of course they don’t care. Even the great white knight of the hobby was still bidding in Legendary Auctions after he was banned.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

I agree but even a complete moron with eventually quit hitting themselves in the thumb with a hammer. It just takes longer for some than others.

I also agree that scammers will do everything they can to keep the scam going. Cash is king, receipt what receipt.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's unfortunately to late, PSA already has completely influenced the millions of sheeple who eat and drink from the registry and pop report. Auction Houses, Dealers, ebay seller and collectors have made millions off their brand.... they will keep shut as always..... need to pump their product. To many people make money off PSA for them to fail.

So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

Very well stated Ben, but don't worry. "My submissions are popping" and I have such a warm feeling pissing down my leg with excitement... people are such IDIOTS PERIOD

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Poppage" bro. As in "sub popped." As in message board slang for my grades are available.

oH, THANK YOU. I was feeling left out. I wanted my subs to Pop too. Even though I never had a submarine.

Just like my resto mod engine is 454 bored to 464. Everyone was asking me if it was "stroked". I never knew what that was but I felt I was missing something? Even though the car has 100K into it, I always wanted a "stroker".... but I never knew WTF they were talking about. I don't know what "bored" means either? But I have it and it feels good.

I do know what "fraudulent scam" means though and this card debacle is the very definition.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.

[BeanTown]

Tom Skerritt tells all his new pilots the samething Brent/Moser tells all their new cards.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.

I already am fruitcake, your still pooping...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by silvor

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

You are not the only one to have observed potential issues with that right edge.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

PWCC sucks...but this is more a reflection on how badly PSA sucks!!!!

[ullmandds]

I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I just took an acrylic bur to this PSA slab!!!!

That's a lot of work for a slab that pops apart in a half a second.

[Rhotchkiss]

This is a super rare PC. I think Stevenovella had one up on eBay a few months ago, as an auction with $40k minimum bid, but I don’t think it sold. Anyway, I agree with a Jay that the card went relatively cheap - in fact, I think the hammer price on the card may indicate the opposite of your hypothesis

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

Brent isn't using something as obvious as bleach, it's some kind of peroxide I believe.