SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

[benjulmag]

This thread has become a bit hijacked.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

This thread has become a bit hijacked.

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

[markf31]

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by markf31

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Yep. REA employing card doctors? Laughable. LOTG? Laughable. I doubt every other word attributed to this "insider".

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I agree it's hyperbole but it may not be entirely inaccurate. I am sure there are and were AHs that sent cards to be altered.

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I have no doubt. Mastro and Allen were definitely doctoring cards. I also have no doubt that REA and LOTG are not and I think of both of them as major auction houses in our hobby.

Agreed.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by markf31

"Aside those listed here, every major auction I know of employs card doctors."

Its one thing to question auction houses on their knowledge of specific slabbed cards that are suspected of having been doctored, its another to make the accusation that they all actively employ card doctors. This is a statement that goes a little too far and IMO casts at least a little doubt on the veracity of the other claims made in the letter.

Either that or the "cart full of cards" that were guaranteed a minimum grade. Neither claim is particularly credible, IMHO.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I tired to get it back on track...off the rails again with the lyrics

People are done....

Nothing will change PSA will continue to be at the top... people will continue to burn their money on altered cards in their holders it’s all about the grade...

New grading company won’t happen

Sell sell sell

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share. But one doing something completely different, utilizing technology that would, for example, floresce whenever it detected paper alteration, could be enormously successful.

While PSA would no doubt be reluctant to take a second look at cards they graded and admit any problem, a competitor equipped with this technology would be more than happy to take them down. That would be their likely path to a greater market share.

Nothing may happen this week or this month, but this story is far from over. I predict some enterprising soul will turn this hobby upside-down. There is a giant void that somebody is about to fill.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Not sure I agree that a new grading service won't happen. A new company trying to do the same exact thing as PSA will fail, because PSA controls too great of a market share.

Tell that to Amazon, they started out selling books... A new company with a new wrinkle will affect changes with the TPG's....

[slidekellyslide]

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

He certainly can be called Dicky Licht man. Had great respect for the man at the beginning speaking the truth, but I guess everyone else was correct about his shady character now that he has to be a bold faced liar for his pal Brent Mastro. The biggest criminal this industry has ever seen. I mean what did we expect? it's very fitting actually.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

[slidekellyslide]

I hope you are right, Corey.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Unless and until there is a grading option that can detect expert alterations, I agree not much is likely to change. But, and this is perhaps where we differ, I believe such a grading option is inevitable. The reason -- if done properly it could make some people very rich. Financial incentive is very powerful, and here I believe it is viable.

I know for a fact some people are looking at it very seriously and significant sums are being raised as startup capital. And if the new model works and alterations can be detected, how can the floodgates not be opened? The money required to effectively market the new company and expose the IMO staggering percentage of vintage high grade alterations will be insignificant compared to the money required for the startup.

Imagine the following. Once this happens this new company is set up at the National with a red portrait T206 Cobb in its "8" holder, and next to it is a PSA "8" of the same card. And next to both of these cards is last month's Forbes's magazine article heralding this new TPG and reciting statistics that out of a random selection of 454 T206 PSA "8s", 78% have been exposed by this new grading method as altered in one fashion or another and placed in "A" slabs. Which "8" T206 red portrait Cobb card do you think would sell for more at that juncture, the one in the PSA holder or the one in the new TPG holder?

The whales can yell, kick, scream all they want, but that will not silence the market forces at play here.

This is almost exactly what I was about to post, nearly word for word. We are definitely on the same wavelength.

Collectors can perceive their own collections any way they want, and if they feel that if the label says it's an 8, case closed, that's fine. But there's a huge problem with it: nearly every collector reaches a day of reckoning when it's time to sell. And at that point it's irrelevant what they think of their cards, as that burden falls solely on prospective buyers.

And when the technology is employed to detect the altered cards, there will be unaltered cards that will set record prices, and a pile of damaged goods which will sell for ten cents on the dollar. Right now it's nearly impossible to distinguish the good from the bad, so a card labeled 8 will sell for an 8 price. But if you knew for sure the 8 was altered, you wouldn't pay anywhere near market value for it.

And if there is any doubt that such technology will be implemented, let me ask you this: is there any area of our lives that isn't being affected by technology? So you know darn well this is going to happen. We don't know when, but I guarantee the new technology will eventually be the standard for this industry.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

You sir hit the nail right on the head ...what you said is the bottom line

Excellent

[rats60]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Are the whales ready to reholder thousands of cards with a new company? Will the new company start a registry? They would have no reason to jump if it doesn't because it's about the competition and the number on the slab. It's going to be so much easier to accept "conservation and alteration".

Call me a cynic, but there is already a certain acceptance of fraud in this hobby. How many years in a row can the FBI arrest or hand out subpoenas at the National? The fake T206 autographs are already in the rear view mirror. Mastro, Allen and Rogers all went to prison, did that deter PWCC, Moser, SSS and the probably hundreds of other card doctors from forging onward with their fraudulent activity? Nope 2 out of 3 of them were set up at the National pretending it was business as usual.

The hobby's white knight, the fiercest opponent of the fraudsters in the hobby who claimed his employment as PWCC counsel would be the best thing for the hobby is already minimizing PWCC's involvement in fraud that likely dwarfs Mastro and Allen.

Yeah, things will change, but not how we want them to.

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

But what about the new buyer of these high dollar high grade cards? Why wouldn't they want to send them to a second company for a second opinion as to if the card is altered? If you were paying 5 or 6 figures for a card, wouldn't you want to know it was unaltered and would hold its value in the future?

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

[taul166]

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by taul166

As I recall and someone can correct me if I am wrong or if events have changed anything, but didn't PSA commit to doing a thorough investigation and report back on its findings to all stakeholders? Did PSA commit to a timeline for doing this and have they issued any interim statements or findings yet?

Aren't we still waiting for PSA to address WIWAG which happened in the early 2000s?

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I certainly would...

And as for Dan's point about the fake T206 Signed cards being behind us....

Sure people aren't talking about it as much anymore. But that's largely because of the new bigger revelations of PWCC/PSA taking hold. And even though the fake signed T206s are no longer at the top of the message boards, people DO remember it. And I believe these collectors are far more hesitant to delve into that arena now. I have seen very few examples (if any) since that news broke, and think it will be far more difficult now to get these examples past the autograph experts.

Hopefully the card altering scandal will carry far more specific long-term ramifications for the TPAs, as well as jail time for those who have continually defrauded us.

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

[swarmee]

BGS has no grade guarantee, so their buyers are just out of luck. Until they file lawsuits if they choose to. Class action that they are being duped by the appearance of having a fair grading company that is taking payola to give grades to the largest submitters would be one. They are getting skewered on Blowout.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297069

SGC is a small fry (submission numbers wise), but I believe they refunded the first few (unless the auctionhouse did instead) and then stopped refunding and closed their auto auth shop. They did recommend one scammed individual try to get restitution from the fraudster who submitted the card. Then they deleted the "Grade Guarantee" they used to have from their website.
But I'm guessing they're still liable for the guarantee on the cards that were graded while it still existed.

PSA was warned 15+ years ago that they were letting scammers submit cards, and stuck their heads in the sand and let the fraud continue. To me, that is complicit.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

What did SGC do about the fakes besides close down their autograph division? I don't recall seeing numbers or dollar amounts of fake autos in SGC holders or refunds being given on any of those. A lot of talk about PSA, which there should be, but not much on SGC or BGS who both are in deep in both of these scandals.

SGC terminating their autograph division was at least a response... and a stealth admission of guilt to some degree. Certainly more than Orlando/Sloan/PSA have fessed up to.

An analysis of the altered vintage cards (to come to light so far) was conducted in one of the BO threads. Among other things it concluded that to date, nearly $1.8 million worth of fakes have been sold, with the breakdown by TPA as follows...

PSA 95%
SGC 4.5%
BVG 0.5%