Dealers need to learn more about foreign cards

[Jason19th]

Had a great time at the National today and picked up a holy grail level item thanks to a board member- will post later. But as someone who collects Cuban and Puerto Rican cards I was struck by some of the crazy prices. For those who are not familiar there where cards put out in the late 1940’s in Puerto Rico called toleteros. They are great high quality cards and they are relatively scarce when you compare them to say late 1940’s Bowman’s. What they are not is a 500 per common card. A simple eBay search will show you that commons sell for 30-60 depending on condition. There was a card I needed but it was priced at literally 25x of what it’s worth. When there is that big of a disconnect there is really no room for a real negotiation. Dealers need to know that you cannot just label a $40 cuban issue with a sticker that says “negro leaguer” and then price it at 400. If that is done nothing moves. Bottom line when you are selling out of tour usual comfort zone please just do a little research.

[BigBeerGut]

Hmmm

So the card you 'needed' was a lot of money and you come here to cry about it?
Why not grow a spine and say something to that dealer?

Maybe the one you need is more rare ! Since you know the set so well and you have yet to find that one does not that mean its hard to find?

Show us your holy grail please :>

[seanofjapan]

In fairness, its hard to expect every dealer to be an expert on every single card they have no matter how rare or outside the realm of general knowledge in the hobby it is. If it was a dealer specializing in that sort of stuff it would be different, but if it was a guy who deals with more common stuff and just happened to get a Puerto Rican card that he didn't know much about, its hard to fault him for taking a "lets just slap this high price on it and see if anyone takes it" approach. Obviously you wouldn't buy from that guy, but doing the research necessary to price stuff they don't know much about accurately probably isn't something a lot of them view as worth their while if they aren't going to regularly deal in it.

I live in Japan and collect Japanese cards and when I peruse Ebay listings of vintage Japanese stuff its pretty obvious that a lot of the US sellers selling them aren't experts and just stumbled across some, based on the prices they are asking which have that "I don't know if this is worth anything but maybe it is so I will price it ridiculously high" mindset.

[Jason19th]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Hmmm

So the card you 'needed' was a lot of money and you come here to cry about it?
Why not grow a spine and say something to that dealer?

Maybe the one you need is more rare ! Since you know the set so well and you have yet to find that one does not that mean its hard to find?

Show us your holy grail please :>

I did tell the dealer I thought that he was very high. He got mad and put the cards back. Also I don’t think it’s to much to ask to do a google search before you try to sell something for 500. I think that is the kind of thing that gives the hobby a bad name.

[packs]

I don't think it's limited to foreign cards. This sounds like a universal experience. The last card show I went to had a table that happened to have a few nice D311 Pacific Coast Biscuit cards. I was interested in one graded a PSA 2. The guy said he wanted $600 for it.

When I said that was MAYBE a $200 card, HE told ME I didn't know what I was talking about.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

... Dealers need to know that you cannot just label a $40 cuban issue with a sticker that says “negro leaguer” and then price it at 400.

Pretty sure they can. Its their merchandise and they can put whatever price on it they choose. Just as its your choice to do business with them or not and move along.

I dont understand the point of people complaining about how the asking prices a dealer decides to puts on their merchandise. Every now and again someone will post about various Ebay sellers and their ridiculous BIN prices that have been listed on cards for years.

A dealer who is rude or condescending when you approach them about their prices, that I dont agree with. But who I am to say a dealer cant put a price tag of $400 on a $40 card?

[Jewish-collector]

This thread will get really interesting if the dealer Jason is referring to is a member of Net54.

[Jason19th]

I should clarify. Of course a seller can put any price they want on an item. It’s the buyer’s responsibility to know the value of the item. My point is that I think doing so is ultimately bad for the hobby. I look at the world of baseball books. Values have gone down a lot over the past 15 years and I would argue that one of the reasons is the pricing of books way over market. I can show you books that have been for sale on eBay or ABE books got the last 15+ years. They have not sold and the prices have not been reduced. When good material doesn’t circulate collecting stagnates

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I did tell the dealer I thought that he was very high. He got mad and put the cards back. Also I don’t think it’s to much to ask to do a google search before you try to sell something for 500. I think that is the kind of thing that gives the hobby a bad name.

Sounds like a guy who did not get what he wanted.

Soooo let us bash the dealer! Did it ever occur to you you would not even have SEEN the card if that dealer did not bring the card in the first place for you to even get a sniff?
You should have just bought the card and 'over paid' --since it would not have been over paying ...because you can not find the card!!

First time you even saw that one you needed right?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Sounds like a guy who did not get what he wanted.

Soooo let us bash the dealer! Did it ever occur to you you would not even have SEEN the card if that dealer did not bring the card in the first place for you to even get a sniff?
You should have just bought the card and 'over paid' --since it would not have been over paying ...because you can not find the card!!

First time you even saw that one you needed right?

Beer Gut, I totally agree with you and from your recent posts I think it would be a blast to hit a bar and tip a few with you.

Buyers thinking they should tell sellers to lower their prices... kind of self-serving, isn't it? And I sure don't buy the "good for the bobby" line. Like Gut says, be happy the dealer had one that you could see. You're actually better off for that, as opposed to the dealer not having it at all, at any price.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Beer Gut, I totally agree with you and from your recent posts I think it would be a blast to hit a bar and tip a few with you.

Buyers thinking they should tell sellers to lower their prices... kind of self-serving, isn't it? And I sure don't buy the "good for the bobby" line. Like Gut says, be happy the dealer had one that you could see. You're actually better off for that, as opposed to the dealer not having it at all, at any price.

Isn't this behavior the reason card shows are dying? There's no money trading hands, which puts the rental of the table underwater due to absurd pricing on the table. So if the show is no longer profitable for a "dealer" there won't be any dealers at the show, and there won't be a show to go to.

Wouldn't anyone prefer to make money over not making it? From all descriptions this was a common card, not a HOFer. Is there even another buyer out there for it?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Isn't this behavior the reason card shows are dying? There's no money trading hands, which puts the rental of the table underwater due to absurd pricing on the table. So if the show is no longer profitable for a "dealer" there won't be any dealers at the show, and there won't be a show to go to.

Wouldn't anyone prefer to make money over not making it? From all descriptions this was a common card, not a HOFer. Is there even another buyer out there for it?

So you are worried about the dealer making a profit, and you want to "coach" him on how to price his cards? What makes you think you need to assume a parental role over other adults who are running their business (yes, I know some people like to try to control other people when they can...)

If what you say is true, then the dealers who are overpricing their stuff will figure it out and make adjustments. The supply-demand dynamic works. Let dealers decide what they want to ask, let buyers decide what they are willing to pay, and the market, as it always does in a free capitalist economy, will work just fine. You, or other people, don't need to dictate what a "correct" price should be.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

This thread will get really interesting if the dealer Jason is referring to is a member of Net54.

Depends on if they are in the "in" crowd. I have seen this happen a few times recently. A member has a painting listed on eBay and several members talked crap about it being highly overpriced. Then a member sold another member a altered card and nothing but crickets.

[Scocs]

Sorry, but I agree with Jason. These are supposed to be markets, NOT museums. Sometimes I wonder if dealers are more interested in showing their cards than in selling their cards.

I understand the dealer has overhead and profit to consider, but currently there is a Toletero that has beenon eBay forever that’s priced at $2000 that I don’t think is worth more than $200. Where are negations supposed to go, assuming the card is open to negotiation? $300...hell, even $200 now is worth more than $2000 never.

From the dealer’s p.o.v., I would hate to have to haggle over every card I sell, so I understand that point. So as it really is a two-way street of educated buyers and sellers necessary for positive transactions.

That’s what I think pisses Jason off so much, for good reason.

[Mark17]

Scott, I agree with you and Jason that a smart dealer who wants to make sales will price his stuff reasonably so it will sell. For the supply-demand concept to trigger, the buyer and seller need to be close enough that they can agree on a mutually acceptable price.

My disagreement is at the higher level - the attitude I see frequently in society, where people want to tell others how to live, or run their businesses. I've seen many dealers overprice things and the only persons who suffer are those dealers. A potential buyer does not suffer or incur any type of loss if they see something they would like to have, but it's priced ridiculously high.

So, dealers who adjust and price their stuff well will prosper, and those who don't will either learn, or not make very many sales. It's really simple, and it requires no "help" from third parties.

[Scocs]

Mark, I concur. For Jason, it’s the loss, though, of walking out empty handed without the card he wants. We’ve all been there and it sucks.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Scocs

Mark, I concur. For Jason, it’s the loss, though, of walking out empty handed without the card he wants. We’ve all been there and it sucks.

If I went through life thinking that way, I'd feel a sense of loss every time I saw a Corvette. :-)

It was a piece of cardboard. I'll bet he gets over it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If I went through life thinking that way, I'd feel a sense of loss every time I saw a Porsche Turbo. :-)

It was a piece of cardboard. I'll bet he gets over it.

I fixed that for you.

I agree, he will get over it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I fixed that for you.

Oh, shoot! Ben when I first read this I thought, "He's sending me a Corvette!"

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So you are worried about the dealer making a profit, and you want to "coach" him on how to price his cards? What makes you think you need to assume a parental role over other adults who are running their business (yes, I know some people like to try to control other people when they can...)

If what you say is true, then the dealers who are overpricing their stuff will figure it out and make adjustments. The supply-demand dynamic works. Let dealers decide what they want to ask, let buyers decide what they are willing to pay, and the market, as it always does in a free capitalist economy, will work just fine. You, or other people, don't need to dictate what a "correct" price should be.

I advise you to actually go to a card show. Let me know what you see in terms of pricing. Dealers aren't adjusting anything. It's the same tired table show after show until the dealer stops showing up. Nobody cares about profit and that's the issue. I can't tell you how many times I've had some bum dealer tell me what they "have into" a card and then use that as some basis for their price. What do I care what you paid? It has nothing to do with what I'm willing to pay for a card.

I'm not policing the pricing, it is a service that I'm providing. I'm telling you not to waste your time buying a table just to price your cards through the roof because you won't make any sales. In fact, maybe the dealers on the board should pay me a consulting fee for the money I've just saved them.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

I advise you to actually go to a card show. Let me know what you see in terms of pricing. Dealers aren't adjusting anything. It's the same tired table show after show until the dealer stops showing up. Nobody cares about profit and that's the issue. I can't tell you how many times I've had some bum dealer tell me what they "have into" a card and then use that as some basis for their price. What do I care what you paid? It has nothing to do with what I'm willing to pay for a card.

I'm not policing the pricing, it is a service that I'm providing. I'm telling you not to waste your time buying a table just to price your cards through the roof because you won't make any sales. In fact, maybe the dealers on the board should pay me a consulting fee for the money I've just saved them.

Other people aren't behaving as you wish they would.

It happens in a free society.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Other people aren't behaving as you wish they would.

It happens in a free society.

What do you do when you have a negative experience? Are you policing people when you talk about ways your experience could have been enjoyable? Your perspective makes criticisms sound like they're overly aggressive but I think it's a fairly common experience to share your opinions on ways you could have had a better time.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you do when you have a negative experience? Are you policing people when you talk about ways your experience could have been enjoyable? Your perspective makes no sense to me.

I get to make decisions regarding things I own, and I extend the same courtesy to others. If there is something I want but cannot have, I simply walk away. And by the way, I am not wealthy so that happens a lot.

I am sorry that perspective makes no sense to you.

[packs]

I tried to amend my comment. What I really mean is that your perspective makes criticisms sound overly aggressive when they aren't. People are free to discuss things that would make something more enjoyable without wanting to exert control over people.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

I tried to amend my comment. What I really mean is that your perspective makes criticisms sound overly aggressive when they aren't. People are free to discuss things that would make something more enjoyable without wanting to exert control over people.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me, thanks for clarifying. The title of the thread is: Dealers need to learn more about foreign cards and from there the conversation has been about potential buyers trying to tell dealers what to do price-wise.

Look, I'd love to go on ebay, search for stuff I'd like, be able to name a price I would be willing to pay, and scoop a bunch of assets up at good prices. Problem is, until I buy them I do not own them and therefore I don't get to name the price.

I know what it's like to miss out because a dealer's price is too high. I have a collection of game used bats of the 1965 Twins, and only need 2 non-pitchers. A game bat of one of those guys recently popped up on ebay. Since the player is a common and the bat had no game use, I thought it was very over-priced. I made an offer, the seller made a counter-offer which I thought was still too high, so I rejected it and moved on.

I think I am one of the very few people looking for a bat of that specific player, and I think the offer I made was the best one he will ever get, but I didn't lecture him about it; I just walked away. He has a right to ask whatever price he wants and who knows, maybe he'll find someone who will pay it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Scocs

That’s what I think pisses Jason off so much, for good reason.

Hey everyone's entitled to feel however they want, but this is NOT a "good reason." You just got a cancer diagnosis, your wife was in a car accident, your dog died, your boss just promoted an idiot who does half the work, half as well as you, those are good reasons to be be pissed off. Someone asking more than you want to pay for a piece of cardboard is a minor annoyance at most for a well-adjusted person. JMHO.

[Jason19th]

Wow this went places that I just wasn’t expecting.

First of all I just want to reiterate that I had a great time at the National and walked away with a great item and some great conversations. I don’t really collect cards, I collect players and I am sure I will have the opportunity to find something with the player in the future. It was a mild annoyance that did nothing to cloud a great day.

Second however I think that it does deal with a bigger issue of markets and what makes a healthy market. No single buyer has to listen to any single seller and no single seller has to listen to any single buyer. Both buyers and sellers do however need to listen to THE MARKET. If a card is on eBay, it’s correctly listed and of clear quality and it has not sold for months that means that it is priced over market. If a dealer ignores this and prices the item at ten times the amount they are not really in the market. They are not selling they are displaying. The same from buyers. If a card routinely sells for a 1000 I can’t say I collect that card but I think the price is wrong. It’s not my choice, if I don’t want to pay the market rate I cannot say I collect that card. I may want it, but I don’t collect it.

My point is it’s bad when either sellers or buyers ignore the market. It creates an unhealthy market that will just die

[rajah424]

[/B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Hey everyone's entitled to feel however they want, but this is NOT a "good reason." You just got a cancer diagnosis, your wife was in a car accident, your dog died, your boss just promoted an idiot who does half the work, half as well as you, people that act like they are authorities on every subject, those are good reasons to be be pissed off. Someone asking more than you want to pay for a piece of cardboard is a minor annoyance at most for a well-adjusted person. JMHO.

Fyp

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by rajah424

[/B]


Fyp

Don't know if that was directed at me, don't really care (see it didn't piss me off!) but as an authority, I would say that is also not a good reason to get pissed. You can simply disregard what I say.

People who get bent out of shape by stuff that doesn't materially affect them confuse me.

[Scocs]

Perhaps I’m conflating “being pissed off” with “being disappointed.”

And now back to our show!

[TanksAndSpartans]

The simple supply and demand model can be graphed with price on one axis and quantity on the other. There is no time indicator, so how long it will take to reach the point where a transaction is made is not shown. I often feel prices are set on eBay and elsewhere in kind of a “wait for the sucker” mode. It can be annoying to someone who knows the market well enough to make an educated guess as to where the item would end up if it went to auction, but those probably aren’t the buyers the seller is looking for.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Don't know if that was directed at me, don't really care (see it didn't piss me off!) but as an authority, I would say that is also not a good reason to get pissed. You can simply disregard what I say.

People who get bent out of shape by stuff that doesn't materially affect them confuse me.

I have this conversation with my wife fairly often.

I see some things as very big picture things. Like when software is inconsistent, or has UI that's inconsistent. It bugs me a lot, even though it may have little to no direct effect on me. But then there's the show we saw where an inconsistency in labeling between a simulator and an airliner caused a crash.... so consistency in some things IS important.

As far as cards goes, or any other collectible for that matter... Overpriced stuff has a few bad effects. Some mentioned by others.
It used to really bother me 20 years ago. Less so now. Oddly dealers underpricing things out of ignorance has never bothered me much at all...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Scocs

Perhaps I’m conflating “being pissed off” with “being disappointed.”

And now back to our show!

I'm completely on board with disappointment. Mahalo!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

As far as cards goes, or any other collectible for that matter... Overpriced stuff has a few bad effects. Some mentioned by others.
It used to really bother me 20 years ago. Less so now. Oddly dealers underpricing things out of ignorance has never bothered me much at all...

Oddly I have very few buyers complain about getting good deals at my auctions either. Still waiting for someone to say "Great auction but I didn't pay nearly enough for the card I got so here's an extra $50."

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Oddly I have very few buyers complain about getting good deals at my auctions either. Still waiting for someone to say "Great auction but I didn't pay nearly enough for the card I got so here's an extra $50."

I have never done that with a business but I have done that with fellow collectors before.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I've actually done it as a dealer buying a collection once. they gave me a number and it was just goofy, and for once it was goofy low instead of high. I couldn't make myself take it at their price.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Oddly I have very few buyers complain about getting good deals at my auctions either. Still waiting for someone to say "Great auction but I didn't pay nearly enough for the card I got so here's an extra $50."

Scott, if it makes you feel any better, I've gotten such good deals at your auctions I just gave the card away

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by x2drich2000

Scott, if it makes you feel any better, I've gotten such good deals at your auctions I just gave the card away

That's because you got what you really wanted. The dolls...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Oddly I have very few buyers complain about getting good deals at my auctions either. Still waiting for someone to say "Great auction but I didn't pay nearly enough for the card I got so here's an extra $50."

I suspect you'll have a long wait for that.

I did once have a small part in a dealer doing it.
Guy came in with a bunch of late 40's early 50's cards. (In like 1979 or so, not all that unusual. ) Most were VG or worse.
The dealer, whose shop I hung out at made the guy an offer and he said he'd think about it. It was over the phone, while they had the cards.
Since I was there like 3-4 days a week I got to look through the bunch.
I get to the leafs, and there are a few I didn't recall seeing before so I asked for the guide book. (Either sports collectors bible, or the 78 Beckett. ) And after looking up I remarked that I'd never seen leaf rare numbers before.
"What"
"Yeah, there's a few of them in here, like maybe 10"
"Oh crap"

Brief discussion ensues, seller is contacted again and given a much better offer. which he instantly takes.
3 dealers saw the bunch, including the guys I hung out at who were pretty good. I was the only one who noticed.

The debate had been along the lines of "do we offer more to maybe compete with the other offers, or will it make the guy think we were lowballing him and wreck the whole deal since he may not trust the new offer if he thinks that.

The new offer was easily the highest. Done deal as soon as the guy got there and they went with him to the bank across the street for cash.
Happiness all around, except for me. I couldn't get a special discount on one of the rare numbers for having noticed them.. I still don't have one.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

they should've definitely taken care of you for the head's up.

[ALBB]

Wow,
You cant get away with anything on this site LOL .... this thread is entertainingly, out of control

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me, thanks for clarifying. The title of the thread is: Dealers need to learn more about foreign cards and from there the conversation has been about potential buyers trying to tell dealers what to do price-wise.

Look, I'd love to go on ebay, search for stuff I'd like, be able to name a price I would be willing to pay, and scoop a bunch of assets up at good prices. Problem is, until I buy them I do not own them and therefore I don't get to name the price.

I know what it's like to miss out because a dealer's price is too high. I have a collection of game used bats of the 1965 Twins, and only need 2 non-pitchers. A game bat of one of those guys recently popped up on ebay. Since the player is a common and the bat had no game use, I thought it was very over-priced. I made an offer, the seller made a counter-offer which I thought was still too high, so I rejected it and moved on.

I think I am one of the very few people looking for a bat of that specific player, and I think the offer I made was the best one he will ever get, but I didn't lecture him about it; I just walked away. He has a right to ask whatever price he wants and who knows, maybe he'll find someone who will pay it.

Dear Mark and 'Packs' --- Do you really need to have this mindless pointless silly convo for all to see? Just message each other to arrange the date I can see you two lovebirds tying the knot.

Packs with 5000 anonymous posts .....

[Leon]

Yes, when I did auctions I never heard anyone complaining about getting a good deal and then send me more money. Not sure why?

As far as learning more about foreign cards....maybe it isn't a good ROI of the dealer's time? They would rather Do the ole "Mr. Mint flip".....or price too high and not sell.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Oddly I have very few buyers complain about getting good deals at my auctions either. Still waiting for someone to say "Great auction but I didn't pay nearly enough for the card I got so here's an extra $50."

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Leon

Yes, when I did auctions I never heard anyone complaining about getting a good deal and then send me more money. Not sure why?

As far as learning more about foreign cards....maybe it isn't a good ROI of the dealer's time? They would rather Do the ole "Mr. Mint flip".....or price too high and not sell.

I did get a great buy on old hobby publications from your auction years ago. It was for the opening bid, as I recall. I almost sent you more money just for the packaging and shipping of the lot. I could tell it was wrapped with love and care.

[ElCabron]

Jason,

Maybe it would help to out the dealers you're talking about. Both the good and bad. Maybe some good could come out of dealers knowing who to ask if they are looking for actual realistic prices on foreign issues and not to gouge someone. I'm sorry, if someone is charging 10 times what the actual market dictates a card is worth, they are scamming the buyer, who is obviously new to the hobby. Is it really the best thing for a new buyer to be screwed and run out of the hobby so one dealer can make a stupid amount of profit by charging a ridiculous price to a novice who doesn't know any better? How is that good for the hobby? Out the jerk who is trying to scam people. It's not just a matter of "anyone can charge whatever they want for their cards." We are all capitalists. We all understand the free market. That doesn't mean a new collector deserves to be ripped off. And no one but a novice collector, or a billionaire, would be willing to pay 10 times what they could sell the card for if they needed to.

-Ryan

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by packs

I advise you to actually go to a card show. Let me know what you see in terms of pricing. Dealers aren't adjusting anything. It's the same tired table show after show until the dealer stops showing up. Nobody cares about profit and that's the issue. I can't tell you how many times I've had some bum dealer tell me what they "have into" a card and then use that as some basis for their price. What do I care what you paid? It has nothing to do with what I'm willing to pay for a card.

This! plus 10000!... Whenever I hear this I always end up thinking to myself that I am not going to subsidize this poor dealers bad business decisions in buying a card(s) that are not rare, not in perfect condition and bail him out...I then thank him for his time and shuffle on along...

Just had this conversation with a dealer over a common he had priced 50% over guide on a mainstream 60's set and tell me he couldn't move on the price because he was into deep on it... smh... Thank you! have a good show....was a $10 card he had at $25....