Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

57 Mantle 6 to 8
Refund pile.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4608

add to the $5000 or more list..


I wonder if Auction Houses that sell cards now and to the future will refund if a buyer finds out about their card was altered based on information the Auction House could of researched prior to auction..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

add to the $5000 or more list..


I wonder if Auction Houses that sell cards now and to the future will refund if a buyer finds out about their card was altered based on information the Auction House could of researched prior to auction..

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

Would Love to Find Out Who Submitted these Cards for the Doctor/Doctors..... who's invoices are these on....there are way more guys other than the one we have all be talking about...first things first...who is submitting the cards exposed as altered for whitman111???

We all seem to be targeting on PWCC and yes they're crummy.... doctors and PSA are also crummy.....Who is gonna roll who is gonna be the fall guy??

Will be interesting to see this unfold......Vintage Non Sport is the Only Thing Keeping me Going

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

PSA is an option for refund. However the auction houses can refund the buyer and they go after PSA for their refund.

You would think the 4 months or whatever an auction house prepares for an auction they could do a little digging on a 50k card to see if it was altered and PSA made a mistake before using that card as marketing to bring more eyeballs to their auction for example

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

PSA is an option for refund. However the auction houses can refund the buyer and they go after PSA for their refund.

You would think the 4 months or whatever an auction house prepares for an auction they could do a little digging on a 50k card to see if it was altered and PSA made a mistake before using that card as marketing to bring more eyeballs to their auction for example

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

Not accepting consignments from card doctors might help. Just sayin. I would guess more do than don't. There are a few that don't, to their credit.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not accepting consignments from card doctors might help. Just sayin. I would guess more do than don't. There are a few that don't, to their credit.

Now come to think of it, that would be a good starting point!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Now come to think of it, that would be a good starting point!

The same stakeholders who are going to fix the problem have been accepting them since day one. Many of them, that is.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

right just a spot check of published list of suspected cards would be nice..

can be a list of $5000 and up cards that could be checked...only one click etc..

[Peter_Spaeth]

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

[Rhotchkiss]

I do not feel it is ok to use bleaching or other chemicals and I think it should be considered an alteration. I think it’s fine to use water or natural means to get dirt and removable stains off, but these chemicals are akin to repainting or recoloring- they create a new and unnatural layer of coloring or fundamentally alter the underlying color, so as to fundamentally alter the card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

That particular card is a tough call. If , and that's a big if, the stains are from the caramel on the crackerjacks, it's possible that water would be enough.
But I really think that staining is something else. Mostly because of the card shaped clean area on the back. The stains that didn't come out might be, which would lead me to think the de-staining material was a oil based solvent like mineral spirits.

If it's from having been in a really acidic scrapbook, or envelope, it's possible that the deacidification products the pros (Like museums, not Moser?) use would whiten as they deacidify. If that's the case, then it's probably ok, but should still be disclosed, as that much acidity has already damaged the paper.

If it's just bleached in a barely above amateur hour attempt at making it look better.... nope, not a good thing.

[jmb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

And, PSA even labeled it wrong as a 1914. That could be part of the reason it sold for more if the buyer wasn't paying attention.