N284 Buchner Gold Coin Checklist Add?

[teza11]

Hi. I've reviewed several of the published N284 Buchner Gold Coin checklists and can't find an entry for "Toole, Pitcher, Brooklyn". Is this card a checklist add or something different? Usual Gold Coin printed backside.

Jeff

[Jay Wolt]

I worked on the set a few years ago & never seen this one
Looks in great shape too!

[Cozumeleno]

Wow, that's incredible. Going to link here and add it to the checklist on my site. Great stuff.

[Leon]

I don't think I can remember another new player added to this series since I have been in the hobby. Nice find.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm a little leery, I've only owned a few, but it just doesn't look right.

[bigfanNY]

I do not like the looks of this card. Jmho But I have handled a few hundred gold coins over the years..

[oldjudge]

Looks good to me. Congratulations Jeff, nice find.

[packs]

It looks washed out like a lot of the 48 Leaf reprints look. I'm not sure that's an authentic card, but it could mean there is one out there.

[Leon]

It does look washed out or fake but that wouldn't make sense.

[packs]

Oh wait, the checklist I found has a notation on this card and this thread! Haha, never mind. Agree it would be weird to reprint an unknown card. Maybe it's just the photo.

[tedzan]

I think it is legit. Nice find, Jeff.

I think there are 5 different cards of Steve Toole in the Old Judge set featuring him with Brooklyn, KC, and Rochester.
Therefore since the N284 cards were also printed circa 1887, it's not unusual that Steve Toole was printed in this set.

For many years, the existence of an N284 Bill McClellan card was a mystery. In recent years, this card was confirmed.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[insidethewrapper]

Brooklyn already has a card for "Pitcher" in the set "Porter". It is possible to have more than one card per position in this set . Toole would make that 2 pitchers from Brooklyn. I believe Indy has 2 pitchers , Boyle and Healy.

[packs]

Can we see a scan of the back? Maybe a better scan of the front?

[teza11]

I was wrong. Backside is not printed. Advertising cut-out?

Jeff

[packs]

I would be wary of a blank backed Buchner. Guess that still wouldn't explain why it exists, but perhaps it was a card that appeared on a poster but wasn't actually issued for one reason or another.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Lots of blank backed Gold Coins out there

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Feeling pretty vindicated right about now. Of course the question remains what is it?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Lots of blank backed Gold Coins out there

Scraps or skinned, not legit. At least as far as I am aware.

[Cozumeleno]

Bummer - given the various N284 advertising posters that were printed, that wouldn't be surprising. Many of the poster cards have the traditional backs with ads but there have been references to blank-backed ones, too. Guessing it's one of those for a card that was not issued.

[Cozumeleno]

Just ran a search for them on the site and found this old thread. Seems there are a good number of these out there, though I've not seen any in person.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88940

[bigfanNY]

Sure that could be it.... send it in to a TPG and see what they say...maybe they could restore the back to it's original Reprint/ fantasy lettering.

[teza11]

A few more details. Toole card is about 1/8" taller than a printed back card. Toole card is printed on card stock, however it is about 50% of the card stock weight (thickness). Definitely a period piece. So what is it? Are there other examples of players used for advertising that did not get printed as a checklist card? Any idea of value as it stands?

Jeff

[packs]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Lots of blank backed Gold Coins out there

I don't know of any blank backed Buchners that were actually issued as cards. The only ones I've ever seen are cut from posters. Given that this card is unknown, I would have a hard time believing it was issued on anything other than a poster, and given the way the front looks, I'm still not sure about that either.

[bigfanNY]

Definitely a period piece???? Lol

[buchner]

Its probably a period piece, but McClellan and Toole are not part of the set. They are different, for one thing, the Brooklyn players are wearing pin stripe uniforms.

[Leon]

With a blank back my guess is now an ad cut. Not uncommon in the hobby.

[bigfanNY]

Unfortunately cards manufactured to defraud collectors are also not uncommon. This card is part of that unfortunate group.
Pose and coloration NG
Back NG
No pinstripes NG
Size wrong NG
Card stock wrong NG
While I agree that it is possible to "find" a card that has not been cataloged it is also much easier for the person who creates this type of fantasy / fake card say if he gets cought that it is not a counterfeit it is an original piece of art.
The person who created this card knows full well that a handful of cards cut from a poster do exist. And he exploits the doubt that it creates. I owned for over 30 years a 3 card strip of Gold coins that was cut from advertising poster. This is not one of those. Five glaring problems with this card. And yet hope springs eternal.

[teza11]

Thanks for the additional comments. It’s clear that this is not a checklist series add, however I don’t consider it to be “fake”. If it was produced for/by the Gold Coin company for advertising purposes, then it’s a genuine cut-out from a period banner, poster, counter card, etc. Even if it did not make if off the production floor (i.e. a proof), I’d still consider it to be genuine. Maybe that helps to explain the inaccuracies like color, striping, or whatever.

I still have two questions that I’d appreciate your help with –
(1) Can someone with a N284 advertising cut-out and a N284 series card verify that the cut-out card is slightly taller than the series card?
(2) Does anyone have an advertising cut-out card for a player not on the N284 series checklist?

Jeff

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Feeling pretty vindicated right about now.

act like you’ve been there before.

[bigfanNY]

Act like he's been there before Lol... what about the big guns that stepped up and said this card was good? When do they do the right thing? Or is ok for the OP to go to the national and sell this card and say" so and so and so and so both said it was good so I am completely justified in passing on this modern fake off as a possibility cut from an advertisement that no one has ever seen?
Folks jump and down 24/7 about card doctors and fakes. And once the back of that card was posted there was no longer a debate if the card was good it is a modern FAKE. Everyone makes mistakes me more than most but letting this drag on is just beyond the bounds of what I thought net54 considered ethical.

[RedsFan1941]

you drew a lot of conclusions from a one sentence post. scott was right. bravo. no need to flex.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

act like you’ve been there before.

Don't like to lie

[Cozumeleno]

Jeff - I have an advertising cut and it is on significantly thicker stock than the regular cards. I'll check the size of mine tonight vs. one of my 'regular' cards. Mine is the type with the Buchner advertisement on back, however, while yours appears to be the other blank-backed version, so even that might not help too much.

As you stated, just because it isn't a checklisted card doesn't mean it is not a legitimate poster cut. I haven't seen one of the blank-backed types in person so can't speak to your stock and how it should look/feel, as well as the size of it. You'd probably need someone with one of those to weigh in.

Originally Posted by teza11

Thanks for the additional comments. It’s clear that this is not a checklist series add, however I don’t consider it to be “fake”. If it was produced for/by the Gold Coin company for advertising purposes, then it’s a genuine cut-out from a period banner, poster, counter card, etc. Even if it did not make if off the production floor (i.e. a proof), I’d still consider it to be genuine. Maybe that helps to explain the inaccuracies like color, striping, or whatever.

I still have two questions that I’d appreciate your help with –
(1) Can someone with a N284 advertising cut-out and a N284 series card verify that the cut-out card is slightly taller than the series card?
(2) Does anyone have an advertising cut-out card for a player not on the N284 series checklist?

Jeff

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Act like he's been there before Lol... what about the big guns that stepped up and said this card was good? When do they do the right thing? Or is ok for the OP to go to the national and sell this card and say" so and so and so and so both said it was good so I am completely justified in passing on this modern fake off as a possibility cut from an advertisement that no one has ever seen?
Folks jump and down 24/7 about card doctors and fakes. And once the back of that card was posted there was no longer a debate if the card was good it is a modern FAKE. Everyone makes mistakes me more than most but letting this drag on is just beyond the bounds of what I thought net54 considered ethical.

There is almost no way you can be certain it is fake or real, given the photo and info we have. Saying so, imo, is reckless. I still think it is from an ad but am not sure. If I had it in hand I could be about 95%- 99% but just from a scan the percentage is more like 65% - 70%. Again, just my half cent of wisdom from experiences.

[bigfanNY]

Not my opinion that says this is a fake it is my experiance. Handling ad cards hundreds of regular Gold coins and fakes such as these that seem to pop up here on east coast at flea markets and small shows. Everyone has an opinion...and just like the case with this card opinions can hurt less experienced card collectors.
Fact card is wrong size ad cards are same size as regular cards if cut to proportion.
Fact Color is wrong for a Brooklyn player
Fact This player has never appeared on any known Gold coin ad.
Fact I can see from card back stock is wrong for an ad card.
Would it help to have the card in hand...of course it would..
And my first suggestion to the OP after I told him it was fake was to send to A TPG. Saying "I think it's good go ahead and pass it on" that in my OPINION is reckless.
I dont have the deep pockets some here do and getting burned even for a couple hundred bucks of my limited hobby funds hurts.

[RCMcKenzie]

Looks fine to me. I collect the fronts whether they have the ad or not. Is it skinned? Sending it to a tpg would not change my opinion,although seeing it in hand might. Why would someone make a "fantasy card" of Toole?

[bigfanNY]

Ok I will keep this simple 4 easy question1-Do you have any other players with same pose as posted? 2-Any other Brooklyn players without the pinstripes ? 3- Ever seen this player on an Ad for gold coins? 4-Backs of any of your ad cards look like card posted?
As for reason Money lots of the fakes.
And this is a Card not an autograph opinions dont count it is either real or it is not. This is not a Gold Coin. Simple side by side comparison will show this to be a fact.

[bigfanNY]

Too hard? Ok I will break it down even more simply than
1- wrong size
2_wrong stock
3-wrong pose
4-Wrong colors
5-wrong back

Look at the card start at back ground( close but inconsistent with All known examples)
Then feet the shoes are way to simple they dont match All known examples)
Uniform no shading again simple drawing not up to the quality of Gold coins
Hands holding what? , hands are again to simple and baseball is not even round. Not matching all known examples...

This is just too simple it dose not Match any known examples and a close look shows drawing to be a MUCH POORER quality than ....again all known examples

When as a young man you were sent out for some shinola did you fall for the stinky brown bag with Shinola written on it or did you inspect it a little closer and come home with the right thing?

[Leon]

You may be right. And I agree that the motive is almost always money. But if that is the case,and it may be, what is this like a $50 scam? I will stick to my percentages. Would really love to fondle it a little bit.

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Too hard? Ok I will break it d
own even more simply than
1- wrong size
2_wrong stock
3-wrong pose
4-Wrong colors
5-wrong back

Look at the card start at back ground( close but inconsistent with All known examples)
Then feet the shoes are way to simple they dont match All known examples)
Uniform no shading again simple drawing not up to the quality of Gold coins
Hands holding what? , hands are again to simple and baseball is not even round. Not matching all known examples...

This is just too simple it dose not Match any known examples and a close look shows drawing to be a MUCH POORER quality than ....again all known examples

When as a young man you were sent out for some shinola did you fall for the stinky brown bag with Shinola written on it or did you inspect it a little closer and come home with the right thing?

[RCMcKenzie]

Jonathan, I respect your opinion on this, I'm just not as passionate about my take on this. TedZ mentions a 4th or 5th Brooklyn player found, McClellan, originally catalogued by Burdick, but only recently known. From Lipset's book, Brooklyn cards did not fit the 8 subject pattern of most teams. I looked through my 50 or so cards and I do not have any Brooklyn players.
This card has all the trademarks of the series' artwork. The belt and spats on this card match the style of other cards I have. I have seen different colors on Boston uniforms. I don't have all the answers. It's not my card. If you are right, then the creator of the fake has a better understanding of the set than I do.

[steve B]

The McClellan shown on the old cardboard site also has no pinstripes.
And at least two other subjects have poses that are not duplicated.

I'd have to see the details up close. Modern printing should be really obvious.

[RCMcKenzie]

Thanks for chiming in SteveB. Same uniform. To the OP, Jeff, where did you find this card?

[bigfanNY]

Yes maybe the person who faked this card used this uniform as model.( but I think I have seen this player and that card had pinstripes not 100% but I will follow up) But look close he still did a awful job, clearly got shoes wrong the real card like all the real gold coins is more detailed they have laces. The card from the OP just has a simple stright line. Simplified uniform no shading just a few stright lines. And the hands have no thumbs ( I just looked at 50 Gold coins on REA site and all of them have thumbs) and as I pointed out before the item in his hand that is supposed to be a baseball is not round. Any other gold coins have these characteristics? The 2 unique poses you mention both are the right size and have full gold coin backs. So you are never going to post another real gold coin that shares all the characteristics of this card as a fake by definition it shares a few known characteristics.
If you choose to look past the obvious signs that this is neither a gold coin or a gold coin ad card. Then go right ahead but it is a fake. And I for one dont think it is good for the hobby to encourage fakes.
If a guy at a flea market sells 20 or 30 of these types of fakes each year it becomes worth his while. That one is here on Net54 and more than one person thinks it is real shows clearly why people have been doing this sort of thing for decades. If you can suspend reality and sell a story folks believe what they want to be the truth. But in this case you have to ignore a whole lot of clear facts...Again
Wrong size, wrong back, The drawing itself is inconsistent with all known examples.

[bigfanNY]

This is most likely the pose the faker was trying to repoduce. Side by side you can see all the mistakes. Face being one of the keys. But even the shadow is wrong. I admit no thumb but pose shows no ball unlike the OP card which shows a ball that is completely off scale. And is not even round. Like I said a few similarities just enough to make you get greedy and stop thinking.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are 3 blank backs. The Orr is very thick, the other 2 are very thin. I'm not trying to win the argument. I have no vested interest in the card. When I see evidence that it's a fake I will happily admit I was mistaken. What size is he saying the card measures? I am not seeing that. Rob

[RCMcKenzie]

.

[teza11]

Thanks for the feedback and images Rob. The Toole card measures about 1/8" taller than a standard printed back card.

Jeff

[teza11]

Better picture showing more detail.

[1880nonsports]

I'm an idiot. That said - I'd buy the card. No-one so far is offering a reasonable explanation for WHAT THE MOTIVATION would be. Nearly impossible to replicate artistically and with proper stock/inks without time and money for little return on a common in a lightly collected set and ostensibly no reason other than perhaps a personal project like the Krause guy....

[bigfanNY]

I absolutely believe your first sentence ..me too but not in this case I have seen to many folks burned and learned this lessen. You are exactly why cards like this get produced. You see this card and the first impression is that it is old. You overlook the fact that they did not, as you say "artistically reproduce the card" they produced something similar. Possibly on older card stock but could be aged ( that is one of the things You cannt tell without card in hand). So you start from the premise that it is real. Careful inspection shows that there are alot of inconsistencies but not enough to tip the scale of your "First Impression". People buy cards on Ebay where the seller says "I think this is a reprint so I am selling it as one". Thoughts like even if it's not a gold coin at least it's old, even if it's not a Gold Coin maybe even rarer than a Gold coin. Money /greed combined with the ego boost of look at me I found something. Powerful stuff. But hot like a coal and you get easily burned.
You can collect whatever you like your money. But the OP came here asking if it was a non cataloged Gold Coin. And the answer to that is NO.
I used the Shit vs Shinola example before it is a very old saying. Both are brown and if you rub them into your shoes the become darker brown. But one dont smell so good.