Anyone else feel the same way?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jammin0511

Although I'm certainly upset with all of the scandalous activity that is being exposed in the hobby, I am what you might consider a "low end" collector; most of the cards I'm after are not really worth altering. For the most part, I actively avoid graded cards in general, let alone "gem mint" cards, so my collecting habits are essentially unaffected. However, the high end cards that I have always drooled over but could never afford seem much less appealing now. I'm sure if I was, shall we say, of higher economic status, my collection would be much different and my outlook on the hobby would be greatly affected.

+1. My enthusiasm for the way I collect has not dampened; if anything I feel vindicated, like I instinctively chose the right path. I still collect like a twelve year old me when it comes to older cards: perfectly happy with stuff from the dollar box (aka low grade cards) because I get to have more of them and they can be in my easily-enjoyed binders instead of in boxes of slabs. The vast majority of my slabbed cards are those I submitted myself, so no doubts about them. I am very much looking forward to the National.

[packs]

I guess the most surprising thing to me is that this many people collect high grade cards at all. My 1's and 2's are still looking pretty sweet and I'm not losing sleep over any of them.

Why don't you guys buy cards that look 100 years old instead?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess the most surprising thing to me is that this many people collect high grade cards at all. My 1's and 2's are still looking pretty sweet and I'm not losing sleep over any of them.

Why don't you guys buy cards that look 100 years old instead?

Because for many collectors there is a rush having something that the best available, 1 of 1 or 1 or 2. Makes it seem extra amazing. Not limited to cards at all. Talk to a comic book collector or someone who collects beany babies, humells, or anything else.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Because for many collectors there is a rush having something that the best available, 1 of 1 or 1 or 2. Makes it seem extra amazing. Not limited to cards at all. Talk to a comic book collector or someone who collects beany babies, humells, or anything else.

People like to make comparisons across other hobbies but there isn't a comparison. Baseball card collecting is an area where low grade is not considered worthless or undesirable. How many times has the board echoed the mantra "buy the card not the holder"?

[sportscardpete]

Every hobby has their issues. Just have to be careful. Saying you are done collecting because of this fraud is your loss. Plenty of cards out there that are still good.

I think the board did a great job of reporting and analyzing the issues presented. But, in the grand scheme of things it is a subset of cards in the vintage universe. I feel like some people have automatically dismissed the entire hobby and in my opinion that is just being ridiculous.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

People like to make comparisons across other hobbies but there isn't a comparison. Baseball card collecting is an area where low grade is not considered worthless or undesirable. How many times has the board echoed the mantra "buy the card not the holder"?

Who said low grade was worthless or undesirable? Just pointing out why for some collectors there is a tremendous allure of high end scarcities. Not all but some. Same reason people pay a shit ton of money for limited edition cars and watches.

[ejharrington]

It has decreased, but not eliminated, my enthusiasm for vintage cards. I honestly don't know if my enthusiasm will ever fully come back. It's not only this scandal, but the fake signed card scandal (which had no impact on me directly) and other frauds have left me questioning everything.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Who said low grade was worthless or undesirable? Just pointing out why for some collectors there is a tremendous allure of high end scarcities. Not all but some. Same reason people pay a shit ton of money for limited edition cars and watches.

To each their own as always, but it seems as though the difference between an authentic altered card and these high end scarcities gets smaller and smaller every day. If that makes collecting more exciting, more power to you. You could probably get the same card at a fraction of the price if you bought it trimmed, especially if it's trimmed anyway.

[bbsports]

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

[Yankees1964]

Originally Posted by bbsports

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

Bill, this will make me support guys like you Don and others even more. I can't give up on this hobby, I am too old and need something to keep my mind off of reality . I am just going to concentrate all my buying from guys I know at Philly and White Plains and auction houses I trust (LOTG, Sterling).

[1954 topps]

I'm going to stick out from the normal crowd here when I say I collect exclusively high grade, however, I collect only one set. My collecting goals will not change.

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered. However, I've also been highly skeptical of a few PWCC cards in the past. Example, I passed on a very nice Mays 8.5 that I felt could have been trimmed. As it turns out, this card WAS listed as being outed by BO. When I saw it was outed I wasn't shocked but it was horribly upsetting that I considered bidding.

PSA missed the boat and that's not acceptable. This affects all auction houses and the entire hobby, not just PWCC! Cards turn over several times and I'm not confident Memory Lane, Mile High, REA, Lelands, or others will catch these doctored cards.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered.

And exactly what makes you confident?

[1954 topps]

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

All of which puts you miles ahead of PSA!

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

Precision micrometer for measurements over a extensive sample size, blacklight, and aplanatic-achromatic Loupe. I always check my cards over extensively as soon as I receive them, even commons.

But you can't be sure from just looking at online pics, and most AH's aren't going to accept a return if you deem a card altered using the above when PSA says different without compelling evidence like before and after pics. So then what do you do or what have you done?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Bicem

And exactly what makes you confident?

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

All of us except me.

But on a serious note, yes, the infestation has spread far and wide.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I find it funny that everyone is so confident that their collection has escaped this wrath. Almost as funny as those who think no longer buying from PWCC is going to sheild them. This is just now getting out but has been going on for a long time. At this point these cards are all out there being bought and sold by unknowing, honest people other than Brent...even on the BST here. I'm not saying that denial can't help some people sleep at night, but it's delusion nonetheless.

We all unknowingly have altered cards in our collections. All of us.

I think, with a lot of us, we don't believe that not buying from PWCC is going to shield us. It's more about not rewarding a company that has done so much harm to the hobby we purport to love.

[wondo]

I’m buying more than I ever have. Having a ball!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1954 topps

I'm going to stick out from the normal crowd here when I say I collect exclusively high grade, however, I collect only one set. My collecting goals will not change.

I've bought several cards in my set from PWCC including my Banks rookie and needless to say, I'm confident my cards are unaltered. However, I've also been highly skeptical of a few PWCC cards in the past. Example, I passed on a very nice Mays 8.5 that I felt could have been trimmed. As it turns out, this card WAS listed as being outed by BO. When I saw it was outed I wasn't shocked but it was horribly upsetting that I considered bidding.

PSA missed the boat and that's not acceptable. This affects all auction houses and the entire hobby, not just PWCC! Cards turn over several times and I'm not confident Memory Lane, Mile High, REA, Lelands, or others will catch these doctored cards.

If you don't think that Banks Rookie is doctored, I have a bridge to sell you LOLOLOL.

[Donscards]

Originally Posted by bbsports

Listen guys, I understand how you all feel and you have every right to be down about this hobby. This is still a great hobby and just because there are a few real bad apples that have committed fraud, should we punish all the honest dealers in this hobby? Absolutely not! I have doing cards for 55 years, 40 of them as a dealer, and I am always careful of what I purchase whether it is privately or on line because I resell to the general public. If I get hurt, the customer gets hurt. People still go to baseball games, even though some players try to get an "edge" by taking drugs. Well, you don't ban collecting cards and going to card shows because some of these cheaters that are hurting the hobby. Hopefully the ones that have been cheating for years, most will get caught & this pass by. However it will take time. Don't give up on this great hobby yet.

Well said---I agree with you on the hobby and business. With all the graded cards in this hobby, it is a very small percentage of altered cards out there. Yes, it is bad what these guys have done and there are a lot more people doing this than we have mentioned. But I also have been selling cards for a long time and look forward to a Great National. I still am buying cards strong and if anybody wants to sell me cards, just let me know.

[dabigyankeeman]

Over the years I have bought a lot of graded cards mainly to verify that they are authentic and not counterfeits, and then popped them out of their slabs and put them raw into sheets in albums. The last couple of years I have left them in their slabs again mainly for authenticity in case I want to sell them down the road. I dont get into the super-expensive stuff, and for me I am not going to let this scandal take away the fantastic enjoyment I get out of collecting. I think that except for a small bunch of really intense collectors, this whole thing in time will blow over anyway.

[perezfan]

If PWCC comes away from all of this unscathed, and if there aren't some strong ramifications/changes in store for PSA (i.e. the way they grade + conduct business), then Brent's Tenets will inevitably become the Hobby norm.

At that point (if nothing ultimately happens, and Brent's views on "conservation" are deemed valid), then I am out completely. I am still hanging on by a thread, and finding some nice raw cards via Greg Morris and others. But my continued participation in the hobby pretty much rests on what specific punishment is in store for the Doctors, Corrupt Dealers and TPGs (whether negligent, incompetent or complicit).