PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

[oldjudge]

Barry—This is a quote from you in a post a few spots up:

“That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.”

My question to you is what basis do you have to say that PSA mints money for themselves? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you have never looked at their financials. In point of fact, Collectors Universe is a not particularly profitable company. In 2018, the company made $6.2 million, the low point for the last five years. Their cash flow, excluding a credit line drawdown was over $2 million in the red, and that is with halving their dividend midway through the year. Despite the large volume of submissions they take in at shows, it appears to me that they are struggling to survive.

[barrysloate]

I haven't looked at their financials Jay, you are correct. But I believe they have created one of the most incredible marketing coups with the set registry. How many thousands and thousands of cards have been resubmitted to see if they can get a bump?

If PSA is the weak link here, fine. But how many collector have made a ton of money by getting that bump? How much money do collectors make when they submit a crappy card that has been altered and get it graded a 7 or 8? I'm sure I could come up with a few more, but it's 5:30 AM and I need another cup of coffee.

But I haven't done an audit so perhaps my numbers are less than perfect.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.

Barry, the reason this isn't more obvious to everyone is that your post is not illustrated.

Registry till.jpg

The vote in the board room before creating the Registry was unanimous.

The resubmission of both cards and cash was evident right from the get go.

The user-friendly casino in Newport Beach is the perfect storm in this whole scenario (scandal), and was accomplished without a string of hotels and Wayne Newton.

I'm not going to the National this year, but would appreciate seeing pictures posted of the lines at PSA and PWCC to further illustrate my point.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Barry, the reason this isn't more obvious to everyone is that your post is not illustrated.

Attachment 358389

The vote in the board room before creating the Registry was unanimous.

The resubmission of both cards and cash was evident right from the get go.

The user-friendly casino in Newport Beach is the perfect storm in this whole scenario (scandal), and was accomplished without a string of hotels and Wayne Newton.

I'm not going to the National this year, but would appreciate seeing pictures posted of the lines at PSA and PWCC to further illustrate my point.

I will not post pictures but I will gladly tell you how off the hook the lines are wed, thursday, and Friday.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay- I've come up with an example of how money is minted that I wish to share. I don't speak with many collectors, and I'm sure my story is a familiar one to those who are active in the market. I'll leave out names to protect the innocent.

A number of years ago a good friend of mine had a valuable baseball card graded a 7. He decided to resubmit it to see if he could get a bump. He sent it in again, and again, and again, and again.

The first four times it remained a 7. You would think that PSA was demonstrating some much needed consistency by recognizing the card's limitations. But lo and behold, on the fifth try he got an 8. How did this card suddenly jump a full grade? I have absolutely no idea, nor did he. And let's look at the transaction. PSA got paid five times to grade the same card. Nice work if you can get it. When was the last time you paid your plumber five times to fix the same leak? And my friend, who paid five grading fees and threw them well over $500 (rates were lower then) got back a baseball card that just added around $5000 of value.

So everyone made out like a bandit on that transaction, and absolutely nothing was created or built. All that took place is they passed the same card back and forth to each other. So that's an example of minting money out of thin area. I can't speak for PSA's bottom line, but that one transaction was quite profitable.

Why do some baseball players get turned down for the Hall of Fame and then 6 years later they suddenly are a Hall of Famer...I can see a card being submitted 5 times and only on the 6th time get a difference of opinion...

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Why do some baseball players get turned down for the Hall of Fame and then 6 years later they suddenly are a Hall of Famer...I can see a card being submitted 5 times and only on the 6th time get a difference of opinion...

My example was really more about how TPG's mint money, and less about the merits of the card. No big deal though.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

My example was really more about how TPG's mint money, and less about the merits of the card. No big deal though.

Yes, and they make money when they keep telling submitters its the same grade over and over. Its great to make extra money on a card you already graded as you would think the money part would be over on that card once you graded it, but its only the beginning it appears.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Barry—This is a quote from you in a post a few spots up:

“That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.”

My question to you is what basis do you have to say that PSA mints money for themselves? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you have never looked at their financials. In point of fact, Collectors Universe is a not particularly profitable company. In 2018, the company made $6.2 million, the low point for the last five years. Their cash flow, excluding a credit line drawdown was over $2 million in the red, and that is with halving their dividend midway through the year. Despite the large volume of submissions they take in at shows, it appears to me that they are struggling to survive.

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

[Johnny630]

Would be interesting to know if PSA is paying back PWCC for all the bad cards in their holders that they sold in there auction.Kinda like here keep quiet we will get through this.... PSA to PWCC make it right with your customers buy back the cards in full, apologize make it right...we will take care of you wink wink wink.
It's the right business decison 100% for both compaines. With the caveat our business model and marketing cant be beat these idots are addicted to registry and pop report. We will get through this just do whats right and keep hush......

Buyers Think Oh Wow PWCC is so great they're paying me back in full im so pleased I’ll buy from theses guys again ......they have great cards.......meanwhile the toothpaste has already been squeezed out of the tube. A day late and a dollar short if you ask me. I bet the general buyers will continue to take PSA and PWCC bait hook line and skiner. Who do I blame if they continue to do this? The buyer... All the information is here do with it as you may.....my mind has been made up.
A Fool and his Money are Soon Parted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Would be interesting to know if PSA is paying back PWCC for all the bad cards in their holders that they sold in there auction.Kinda like here keep quiet we will get through this.... PSA to PWCC make it right with your customers buy back the cards in full, apologize make it right...we will take care of you wink wink wink.
It's the right business decison 100% for both compaines. With the caveat our business model and marketing cant be beat these idots are addicted to registry and pop report. We will get through this just do whats right and keep hush......

Buyers Think Oh Wow PWCC is so great they're paying me back in full im so pleased.....meanwhile the toothpaste has already been squeezed out of the tube. A day late and a dollar short if you ask me. I bet the general buyers will continue to take PSA and PWCC bait hook line and skiner. Who do I blame if they continue to do this? The buyer... All the information is here do with it as you may.....my mind has been made up.
A Fool and his Money are Soon Parted.

It's better than no restitution, but it's a decade late and probably millions of dollars short when all the fraud in various forms is added up, and in any event returning the stolen money shouldn't whitewash the crime. If it weren't for the guys at BO this would have gone on forever. PWCC's motive is transparent.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

They were added to the Russell 2000 index. Funds need to own it that mimic its returns.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

they are sitting on almost 16 million of cash according to the latest Q. The stock is way up this year. 11.49 on 1/2, 22.23 yesterday. Weren't people clamoring to short it?

Peter--Sitting on sixteen million in cash? They're a public company for gosh sake. How much debt do they have? How many companies in your stock portfolio have less than sixteen million in cash? Their stock is up recently just because some yutzes decided that is was a good idea to short a thinly traded closely held company. It's called a short squeeze. No one is going to confuse CLCT and AAPL.They didn't cut their dividend in half because everything was going great.

Barry-Sounds like your friend thought his card was an 8 and he finally got it. My guess is that it was a borderline 7/8 and with enough submissions he got the higher possibility.

[porkchops]

So glad I never got into grading , but ,
if anyone is interested , I've got
some "psychic beyond the grave
autographs" I'll be selling cheap,
guaranteed authentic !
Ken

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--Sitting on sixteen million in cash? They're a public company for gosh sake. How much debt do they have? How many companies in your stock portfolio have less than sixteen million in cash? Their stock is up recently just because some yutzes decided that is was a good idea to short a thinly traded closely held company. It's called a short squeeze. No one is going to confuse CLCT and AAPL.They didn't cut their dividend in half because everything was going great.

Barry-Sounds like your friend thought his card was an 8 and he finally got it. My guess is that it was a borderline 7/8 and with enough submissions he got the higher possibility.

Small company. It's all relative. It isn't anywhere close to being on the verge of failure as you suggested. It isn't struggling to survive, for what it is, it's thriving.

Dividends don't mean anything, they typically just mean the company has nothing better to do with its cash than pay it out. How is AAPL's dividend? AMZN?

[oldjudge]

Cutting your dividend in half is never a sign that you are thriving.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Cutting your dividend in half is never a sign that you are thriving.

The market doesn't seem to mind, the stock has almost doubled since 1-1.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Small company. It's all relative. It isn't anywhere close to being on the verge of failure as you suggested. It isn't struggling to survive, for what it is, it's thriving.

Dividends don't mean anything, they typically just mean the company has nothing better to do with its cash than pay it out. How is AAPL's dividend? AMZN?

I thought you were an attorney. Are you a stockbroker too?

[oldjudge]

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

Their coin business which accounts for more than cards got hammered last year, no?

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

It's a thinly traded stock and I believe the recent run up from 18 to 22 is a short squeeze. Everything sold off in the fourth quarter and has recovered since. At the start of last year the stock was over $30/sh.

The stock got added to the Russell 2000 today. Every fund that tracks that index will want to own it so their returns can be as close to mimicking the index as possible. I think there is barely any stock short so not sure a short squeeze is even a potential issue. It is very thinly traded until the last few days as the index news was getting out. Just reading this board would make me not want to own the stock.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I thought you were an attorney. Are you a stockbroker too?

Haha.. but as peter knows I have bought and sold that stock...