PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

[barrysloate]

Bob C- with regard to all the detective work the blowout forum did, I think every card in their before/after comparisons were altered. There were no examples, to my memory, of cards that were merely resubmitted and got a bump. They showed the diagnostic points that were changed by the card doctors. Maybe that's a small point based on your comprehensive post, but wanted to point it out.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Bob C- with regard to all the detective work the blowout forum did, I think every card in their before/after comparisons were altered. There were no examples, to my memory, of cards that were merely resubmitted and got a bump. They showed the diagnostic points that were changed by the card doctors. Maybe that's a small point based on your comprehensive post, but wanted to point it out.

Barry,

I don't disagree with you at all. All I was getting at was that we unfortunately do not have a standard, agreed upon set of grading standards that all TPGs follow, nor do they submit to independent third party peer reviews to ensure that they are following and executing all the required tests and applying all the standards in a consistent and proper manner, nor will they unless and until the collecting/hobby community can get together and make them, or force them out of business for not complying. And without a set and agreed upon set of standards and testing, I can see it being argued by attorneys that some card doctor has technically not done anything wrong. I also stated that I agree there is definitely something wrong with the tremendous amount of submissions being listed and all the scans the Blowout guys have found and put out for people to see. I tip my hat to them for all their detective work and we both know there are tons of doctored/altered cards included in those lists. Now is every single card in those lists doctored/altered, I honestly don't know. And I don't believe (I could be wrong) that the Blowout guys have found before and after scans for every suspect card in those listings. And that is part of the problem. If you try to accuse someone of doing that many altered/doctored cards and in going through the lists you start finding more and more that you can't definitively prove were altered in some manner, it starts to eat away at your claim and accusations to some extent. Plus, I have to believe that in a lot of cases, these card doctors are not always so successful in their attempts to improve a card. In such instances, they probably just submit the cards to whatever TPG will grade it and push them out to get as much cash as they can to go back and buy other cards to try their luck on again.

And those before and after scans the Blowout guys found are definitely damning evidence, but again, we've often mentioned on here about variances and issues with scans and differences that can occur. A good attorney would likely argue that some of the issues and such may be due to scanning issues/differences. Also, just because the Blowout guys find scans that show similar marks on supposedly the same card graded twice and bumped up with the second grading, doesn't mean that there couldn't actually be others of those exact same cards with the same, similar marks on them. So what would happen if in court a defense attorney presented ungraded cards that were the same as ones being questioned as having been altered and resubmitted for grading as evidence, and they also showed the same or similar marking as the cards in question? So then the argument could be that the two scans were possibly not of the exact same card after all and that just because two graded cards had some similar markings, it didn't definitely prove they were in fact the exact same cards. If a card doctor can remove something, can't they also possibly add something to make two separate cards look more alike? Probably not as easy, but still possible.

I'm with you and pretty confident these cards are being doctored and resubmitted, but then again like you, I've been collecting and handling cards a long time and think I'm somewhat experienced in regards to what is and isn't acceptable and probable. However, if selected for jury duty, the chances of you or I being allowed to remain on that jury by the defense counsel is about as good as the chances of a snowball surviving in hell! Have a good one.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BobC

Also, just because the Blowout guys find scans that show similar marks on supposedly the same card graded twice and bumped up with the second grading, doesn't mean that there couldn't actually be others of those exact same cards with the same, similar marks on them.

On a handful of the cards they've shown, there were few marks. And a few of the marks shown are possibly something that would be on several cards.

But most of the marks are actually dark fibers within the cardstock itself. They're a remnant of the papermaking process, and the odds of one piece of paper having nearly identical dark fibers in the exact same locations would be incredible. Could it happen? I suppose it can't be scientifically ruled out.
Could it happen over and over again and pretty much only on cards that have passed through one particular person? I'm willing to call that one a NO.

The modern cards they began with were serial numbered, which is pretty much certain.

Unless the companies make two identical groups of numbered inserts, there is /was at least one Fleer basketball 1/1 that two examples were found. One was fleers file or backup copy that was bought in the auction.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by steve B

On a handful of the cards they've shown, there were few marks. And a few of the marks shown are possibly something that would be on several cards.

But most of the marks are actually dark fibers within the cardstock itself. They're a remnant of the papermaking process, and the odds of one piece of paper having nearly identical dark fibers in the exact same locations would be incredible. Could it happen? I suppose it can't be scientifically ruled out.
Could it happen over and over again and pretty much only on cards that have passed through one particular person? I'm willing to call that one a NO.

The modern cards they began with were serial numbered, which is pretty much certain.

Unless the companies make two identical groups of numbered inserts, there is /was at least one Fleer basketball 1/1 that two examples were found. One was fleers file or backup copy that was bought in the auction.

Steve, thanks for the additional insight. I didn't think or intend what I was saying to refer to all the cards on the list, just that there could be some that could possibly turn up with similar markings. Obviously if there were sequentially numbered modern cards, and the two graded cards are the same number, that is of course a dead giveaway. Still I was merely pointing out how some attorney could try to argue that the allegations that every card on the list was doctored was not correct. I was not as aware of the issue of the dark fibers in the cardstock, and that is a very telling point that you brought out that goes to show the great work done by the Blowout card guys.

And Peter, I also agree with you that what is being done is wrong and illegal, and please don't think I don't realize that. The amount of evidence seems absolutely insane and the coincidental and hard evidence seems so overwhelming that most would found it hard not to convict the people involved of some level of fraud, at the least. And you are absolutely right that if it does go that far, the prosecution will go after and obtain much, much more information in their case. But that is where it gets even more interesting in that what will that information end up showing? Based on what little we've really seen so far, who exactly does everyone think is truly at fault? Obviously the card doctor(s) are the primary targets, but what about all the other parties involved, sellers, TPGs, dealers, they all have benefited and profited from the exploits of these card doctors it seems. To what level, they did or did not know about the exploits of these card doctors, or should have known, could be devastating. How many times have I seen and read threads where someone mentions contacting these sellers, dealers and TPGs to warn them about the nefarious exploits of these card doctors, shillers, and on and on. And then there are the follow-up posts where everyone complains about how it ends up being business as usual and nothing is ever done. So if something concrete finally does come from this latest issue, what can these dealers, sellers and TPGs use for a defense, they didn't know and/or no one ever told them about such possible issues and problems? If evidence eventually does come out to prove that others besides the card doctors themselves were in on this, hopefully the others involved can't just hide behind such a statement that they didn't know and everyone gives them a free pass. It seems almost implausible that if the level, extent and duration of these various issues and antics have been going on involving all the current participants for as long as they have, how could any one of the major players and participants in all this not know about what was going on and be complicit on some level? You've been diligent and at the forefront in bringing and keeping this issue at the forefront for everyone, and I commend you for that as well.

And then if there does come a major case and blow-up of the collecting hobby and system as we now know it, and the added fallout and impact spills over onto the Registry itself to where that implodes as well, the potential negative affect in values and people's collections could be unbelievably detrimental. Which is why you may call me stupid if you like, but for a lot of people with valuable collections that stand to lose a lot if the worst case scenario comes out of all this, they may want to be quiet and not say another word about any of this and hope it all does go away and that things continue on as they are. And that probably includes a lot of people on this forum.

I've been at the office too long and am going home. You guys all have a nice night and lets hope this whole situation can find some resolution that works out best for the hobby as a whole. Only wish I knew what it was. And thank God I basically only collect lower-end stuff and have never gone for the high-end graded items over the years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Steve, thanks for the additional insight. I didn't think or intend what I was saying to refer to all the cards on the list, just that there could be some that could possibly turn up with similar markings. Obviously if there were sequentially numbered modern cards, and the two graded cards are the same number, that is of course a dead giveaway. Still I was merely pointing out how some attorney could try to argue that the allegations that every card on the list was doctored was not correct. I was not as aware of the issue of the dark fibers in the cardstock, and that is a very telling point that you brought out that goes to show the great work done by the Blowout card guys.

And Peter, I also agree with you that what is being done is wrong and illegal, and please don't think I don't realize that. The amount of evidence seems absolutely insane and the coincidental and hard evidence seems so overwhelming that most would found it hard not to convict the people involved of some level of fraud, at the least. And you are absolutely right that if it does go that far, the prosecution will go after and obtain much, much more information in their case. But that is where it gets even more interesting in that what will that information end up showing? Based on what little we've really seen so far, who exactly does everyone think is truly at fault? Obviously the card doctor(s) are the primary targets, but what about all the other parties involved, sellers, TPGs, dealers, they all have benefited and profited from the exploits of these card doctors it seems. To what level, they did or did not know about the exploits of these card doctors, or should have known, could be devastating. How many times have I seen and read threads where someone mentions contacting these sellers, dealers and TPGs to warn them about the nefarious exploits of these card doctors, shillers, and on and on. And then there are the follow-up posts where everyone complains about how it ends up being business as usual and nothing is ever done. So if something concrete finally does come from this latest issue, what can these dealers, sellers and TPGs use for a defense, they didn't know and/or no one ever told them about such possible issues and problems? If evidence eventually does come out to prove that others besides the card doctors themselves were in on this, hopefully the others involved can't just hide behind such a statement that they didn't know and everyone gives them a free pass. It seems almost implausible that if the level, extent and duration of these various issues and antics have been going on involving all the current participants for as long as they have, how could any one of the major players and participants in all this not know about what was going on and be complicit on some level? You've been diligent and at the forefront in bringing and keeping this issue at the forefront for everyone, and I commend you for that as well.

And then if there does come a major case and blow-up of the collecting hobby and system as we now know it, and the added fallout and impact spills over onto the Registry itself to where that implodes as well, the potential negative affect in values and people's collections could be unbelievably detrimental. Which is why you may call me stupid if you like, but for a lot of people with valuable collections that stand to lose a lot if the worst case scenario comes out of all this, they may want to be quiet and not say another word about any of this and hope it all does go away and that things continue on as they are. And that probably includes a lot of people on this forum.

I've been at the office too long and am going home. You guys all have a nice night and lets hope this whole situation can find some resolution that works out best for the hobby as a whole. Only wish I knew what it was. And thank God I basically only collect lower-end stuff and have never gone for the high-end graded items over the years.

Brent knew. I've already explained how I know that, as if the rest of the evidence doesn't clearly show it anyhow. I also have no doubt many AHs and dealers knew exactly what they were taking from card doctors. Card doctors have been feeding these people for a long time.

[Kenny Cole]

But hey, since he's paying some people back, fraud didn't occur. Just ask Jake. Restitution for theft fixes all. Nothing to see here, move along.

[oldjudge]

Barry—This is a quote from you in a post a few spots up:

“That's the great question and we know that collectors don't all agree on why this phenomenon has occurred. One thing, however, that the grading services have been able to do incredibly well is make money for their customers and themselves. As has been often said, they literally mint money. And unfortunately we know that card doctor's and fraudsters have been among the beneficiaries of it all.”

My question to you is what basis do you have to say that PSA mints money for themselves? Tell me if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you have never looked at their financials. In point of fact, Collectors Universe is a not particularly profitable company. In 2018, the company made $6.2 million, the low point for the last five years. Their cash flow, excluding a credit line drawdown was over $2 million in the red, and that is with halving their dividend midway through the year. Despite the large volume of submissions they take in at shows, it appears to me that they are struggling to survive.