Is CC Sabathia a Hall of Famer?

[ullmandds]

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

[lowpopper]

7 seasons over .700 winning percentage. He was dominant.

[Jay Wolt]

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

Just one.....Randy Johnson.

Steve

[wondo]

I like his chances and I like him. The Hall of Fame has always been somewhat of a popularity contest past the over-qualified players. My perception is that nice guys who are borderline get in - Tony Perez, any friend of Bill Terry, Baines, Youngs, etc. granted, these are all stars that anyone would be ecstatic to have on their team. Perhaps a notch below, while the Dick Allens, roid monsters, Belles of the baseball world remain on the outside. I'm not judging, just saying how it looks. There are outliers to every generalization.

Id love for Sabathia to get into the Hall - he's more than deserving imo. Plus he's one of the few successful players fatter than me (almost).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Definitely. He has both the strong career numbers and a solid stretch where he was one of the top pitchers in the game.

[oldjudge]

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

A strikeout can advance runners, although rarely. On the flip side a ball in play is much more likely to become a double play than a strikeout. I believe extensive analysis has been done on this by SABR and James and the conclusion is an out is an out.

Little League is a different story...........................

[RedsFan1941]

he’s the real deal

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

Great--ERA covers that

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

You are correct. There are productive outs and unproductive outs. Anyone who can induce a strikeout like Sabathia is dominant. I never liked him as he always killed by Orioles (but then again, who hasn't) but he is a HOFer for sure.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

Better than Jack Morris, especially when you compare each to their contemporaries.

[Sogcollector]

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

[scotgreb]

IMO Sabathia is likely in and Kershaw is a lock -- 3 Cy Young awards and top 5 in 7 consecutive years + an MVP

Sabathia, CC 1999 Topps33T PSA 10 05324421.jpg

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

You're not going to have a lot of company on that one and Kershaw has back problems not elbow problems.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

3 Cy Young awards, an MVP award, 7x All-Star, career winning percentage is essentially .700, career ERA of 2.41, a career WAR of 65+ in 12 years. Even if he has a career ending injury tomorrow those numbers dictate he is in... right now!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Sogcollector

Not sure but IMO Kershaw is far from a HOF and will likely barely make it to 200 wins, much less 250. Too many miles on that elbow.

Live ball era leader in career ERA (by a LOT) , already has more great seasons than Koufax. He's a no-brainer.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

I have to agree with Jay. Add the fact he posted only ONE season with a sub-3.00 ERA & 20 wins. Solid pitcher but not HOF caliber. Peak value, Tiant & Schilling were superior. HOF continues to be watered down.

[BioCRN]

People can bang on that Schilling drum all they want, but it's not numbers that's keeping him out of the HOF.

I think he belongs and I think he'll eventually get in, but he's got a whole career of pissing off teammates, sportswriters, and people from all walks of life during and after his career.

It has nothing at all to do with what was going on between the mound and the batter. That "character" thing they stress does some heavy lifting, especially historically, but that is keeping Schilling out of the HOF.

As far as CC goes, I'm not surprised he's a HOF'r, but I am surprised it's 1st ballot.

[conor912]

He is now.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

I agree with this. Verlander ... cc and MaYBE kershaw to 250. Although Kershaw will get in anyway, he only has 160 wins which shows how tough it is with all of the relief these days.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..

Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.

Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..

Well, the point is that Pettite didn't do anything particularly outstanding in the playoffs. He pitched a lot. He got 44 starts and had a 3.81 ERA. That's not bad. Pretty good in fact. But "really well"? Nah. 4.06 ERA in the World Series. "Really well"? Disagree. "Really well" is Curt Schilling going 11-2 overall with a 2.23 ERA. It's John Smoltz going 15-4 overall with a 2.67 ERA. It's Madison Bumgarner having a 0.25 ERA in the World Series and a 2.11 overall in the playoffs.