PSA/BGS/PWCC dispute or refund thread

[xplainer]

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by xplainer

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

That was my first reaction when I saw it. However, I can see a valid purpose -- to prevent a card doctor from benefiting from his doctoring. Such a person improves, say, a 3 to an 8, and then tries to profit from his doctoring by invoking the Guarantee.

[frankrizzo29]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That was my first reaction when I saw it. However, I can see a valid purpose -- to prevent a card doctor from benefiting from his doctoring. Such a person improves, say, a 3 to an 8, and then tries to profit from his doctoring by invoking the Guarantee.

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

I'll guess they will say that after re-examining the four cards carefully, all appear to be unaltered.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

How did you end up with the cards? Did you buy them thinking them altered. Did you re-examine them and have doubts? Were they on any of the suspicious sub lists? It’s nice that 20 responses down someone contributes to the original purpose of the thread - thank you and please let us know your progress.

[frankrizzo29]

Originally Posted by wondo

How did you end up with the cards? Did you buy them thinking them altered. Did you re-examine them and have doubts? Were they on any of the suspicious sub lists? It’s nice that 20 responses down someone contributes to the original purpose of the thread - thank you and please let us know your progress.

I purchased these cards from Ebay and from private collectors awhile ago. All 4 cards are T206. They were already slabbed when I bought them. 3 are PSA 7s and one is a PSA 7.5, so my expectations were that they weren't altered in any way. With all of the recent exposures I thought I'd re-examine the cards. Since they were in slabs already I never looked at them with a blacklight. I decided to use a blacklight on all of my cards just because, and low and behold I found these 4 cards had their corners colored. What's interesting to me is that these cards are in holders from a long time ago, so PSA missed this way back than.

I'll definitely post the outcome. I'm sending then in this week.

[Kenny Cole]

You used a blacklight? To detect alterations? What a novel concept. It's a wonder the TPGers, particularly PSA and Beckett thus far, haven't figured that out. What do we pay them to do?

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

I purchased these cards from Ebay and from private collectors awhile ago. All 4 cards are T206. They were already slabbed when I bought them. 3 are PSA 7s and one is a PSA 7.5, so my expectations were that they weren't altered in any way. With all of the recent exposures I thought I'd re-examine the cards. Since they were in slabs already I never looked at them with a blacklight. I decided to use a blacklight on all of my cards just because, and low and behold I found these 4 cards had their corners colored. What's interesting to me is that these cards are in holders from a long time ago, so PSA missed this way back than.

I'll definitely post the outcome. I'm sending then in this week.

This is somehow at once totally unbelievable and utterly believable. I mean, it sort of confirms - as if we needed it - that they PSA naked-eyeballs a significant amount of these (read: all of these), and upon passing that test, there is no further examination as to alteration.

Are you going to tip them off to the alteration, or see if they even bother to check at all?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

PSA can direct all it wants that a person return his/her doctored card to the seller but there is nothing in the Guarantee that requires a person to do so provided the card when purchased was already graded. A person doctors a card to profit from the doctoring, which can happen only if the card is sold already with the bogus grade. If the card doctor is not the person who submits the card for grading, then typically it would be an AH (e.g., PWCC) doing it on the card doctor's behalf. The victim in this instance would be the person who then purchases the card from the AH, and that victim would be free to invoke the Guarantee and return the card to PSA.

So, to get back to the exception in the Guarantee that prohibits the original submitter from invoking it, that exception should not have an impact upon a person who in good faith purchases a graded doctored card.

It will be interesting to see what PSA does when it receives the 4 cards you are returning to them. I am not questioning that they are altered, but what is your proof? The part of the Guarantee that could cause you the most trouble is the exception that prevents you from taking them out of the slab to better examine them. That exception obviously has a valid purpose behind its insertion, but also serves a nefarious purpose -- to prevent detailed forensic examination of the card. So you could be in a Catch 22 -- unless you have before and after pics of the card, in order to prove it is doctored you might have to take it out of the slab, but if you do so, you are prevented from invoking the Guarantee.

If the day should come when technology comes to the rescue and a new TPG forms using as it business model advanced forensic analysis to detect doctoring, at that point I can foresee a day of reckoning for PSA. PSA will of course rely on the "taking-out-of-the-slab prohibition" exception in the Guarantee to insure a doctored card is not examined by such advanced methods. People will scream how else can they prove the card is doctored to successfully invoke the Guarantee. It would seem inevitable at that point that a person will take the card out of the slab under circumstances (e.g., video recording) that will establish the removal was done for the sole purpose of doing a forensic examination that otherwise could not be done, and that no fraud is being perpetrated on PSA. A court, if looking to interpret the Guarantee exception as narrowly as possible, will try to find a way to rule for the victimized card owner, perhaps by ignoring the literal wording of the Guarantee and looking at the intent behind the exception.

The Guarantee also provides all cases adjudicated under it must be brought in Orange County, which is John Wayne territory. I wonder if the state court in that jurisdiction would take as sympathetic a view toward such a plaintiff than would a court in a different jurisdiction. In contrast, the federal court in that circuit is regarded as a very liberal court. The Guarantee does not require that cases brought under it be brought in state court only, so whether to file in state or federal court will be an important decision the plaintiff's lawyer will need to make.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

[Johnny630]

What happens when PWCC runs out of money to return buyers of affective cards who request returns/refunds ? Where is their money coming from ? Is something being worked out behind the scenes with them and psa to cya ? Is psa funding them to keep up with their buy backs of bad stuff ??
Idk food for thought ??

[AddieJoss]

On Monday I received an 8k refund from PWCC for 7 cards I returned. 3 were clearly altered (only because I found before photos) and the other 4 were on a list out there but I couldn’t find the evidence myself.

Cory Weiser

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Where is their money coming from ?

"over 17,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2019."

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Unless the card is sufficiently valuable to meet the federal amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction (assuming a non- California plaintiff), now $75,000, what's the basis for a federal claim?

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

Maybe a stupid question...but what could be the benefit of PSA moving a case from state to federal court?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

You would have to meet that threshold, which given what a lot of high grade cards go for coupled with the number of doctored cards a lot of people will have, should pose no problem for many potential plantiffs. I agree though that a number of potential submitters will have to file in state court. Assuming PSA wants to stay out of federal court, I'm surprised they didn't require all cases be brought in state court.

My understanding, FWIW from a buddy I went to law school with who now practices there, is that you don't really want to be in the Central District of California as a plaintiff. He won't even take a case if it will go there. Orange County is also bad, as I understand it. That forum selection clause PSA has, if enforceable, is a huge problem for a lot of plaintiffs.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

That’s exactly what PSA is counting on to limit their liability in this mess. By directing people to return their cards to the seller their hope is that the cards will be returned to the card doctor, thus allowing them to avoid liability altogether.

I just called PSA about 4 cards that I have that I believe were altered and they really tried to get me to send them to the seller. I did not buy these cards from PWCC so I’m sending them straight to PSA. We’ll see how good their guarantee really is.

apparently its a great guarantee and you will be completely satisfied or it wont be worth your time to pursue litigation.

Or maybe you will have to wait 3 months or more to get a response because 'what choice do you have'

[steve B]

Originally Posted by xplainer

This part is bothersome.
Last line....
and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

So that's why they want them returned to the sellers.
That's about as dodgy as it gets.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by steve B

So that's why they want them returned to the sellers.
That's about as dodgy as it gets.

As a person who recommended it to Mr. Sloan by email, I think it's more prudent than dodgy. But I only recommended they get returned to PWCC, not every seller. PWCC is complicit in the scandal beyond a reasonable doubt IMO and would have to pay it out of hide.
Why take on all that additional liability when the guarantee stiffs fraudulent submitters and card doctors? If the sale never happened, the grade guarantee doesn't need to be paid out.