Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

David can speak for himself but my take on his comments was the opposite. No disdain for those choosing to spend their money elsewhere but rather for those calling him out for where he chooses to spend his money.

That is my opinion any way, even if I got David's wrong. I have no problem with what any of you spend your money on. But don't act like I'm some kind of idiot because I may not agree with your point of view. I have assumed this kind of stuff was going on long before i got into the hobby. And I don't believe the probability of buying a graded card that is altered and escaped detection at a tpg is much greater at any one auction house than it is at another.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

David can speak for himself but my take on his comments was the opposite. No disdain for those choosing to spend their money elsewhere but rather for those calling him out for where he chooses to spend his money.

That is my opinion any way, even if I got David's wrong. I have no problem with what any of you spend your money on. But don't act like I'm some kind of idiot because I may not agree with your point of view. I have assumed this kind of stuff was going on long before i got into the hobby. And I don't believe the probability of buying a graded card that is altered and escaped detection at a tpg is much greater at any one auction house than it is at another.

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

Ethics is treating others how you want to be treated. Taking care of those close to you. Not who you buy trading cards from.

What kid when I was growing up got treated fairly by the local card dealer? None. EBAY has leveled the playing field where the collector can be the house. In many cases it is my understanding that the fees that get charged on consignments can actually be cheaper than doing it yourself. If anything the collector is netting more today from the sale of their cards than ever. That is a good thing.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

You act like Brent got caught being mean to somebody's Mom. Allegedly, he's been caught red-handed committing fraud and conspiring to commit fraud. He's been a key player in an enterprise that has allegedly scammed hundreds, if not thousands, of fellow collectors out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not over a million by now). There's an ethical and legal precedence for this. We pass judgment on people that choose to do business with people like this.

You can buy a gun from a gun store but you don't get to head down to Park Place and buy a gun with the serial number filed off from Joe Gangster out of the trunk of his car. As a society we've established ethical norms and that's not okay. Doing business with people who allegedly commit fraud and try to hurt others for their own financial gain is not a personal preference, it is a conscious choice to go against the societal norms on ethics that have been established.

So, yeah, that's sort of where people are coming from when they say you shouldn't be doing business with him.

[sportscardtheory]

This guy doesn't even care that the people he decides to do business with are committing fraud. Now imagine how much he cares about our opinions. He's the figurative embodiment of cognitive dissonance. It's like talking at a wall. He's the perfect PWCC/PSA/BGS victim, because he couldn't care less that he's being victimized. Let him sink.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

You act like Brent got caught being mean to somebody's Mom. Allegedly, he's been caught red-handed committing fraud and conspiring to commit fraud. He's been a key player in an enterprise that has allegedly scammed hundreds, if not thousands, of fellow collectors out of hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not over a million by now). There's an ethical and legal precedence for this. We pass judgment on people that choose to do business with people like this.

You can buy a gun from a gun store but you don't get to head down to Park Place and buy a gun with the serial number filed off from Joe Gangster out of the trunk of his car. As a society we've established ethical norms and that's not okay. Doing business with people who allegedly commit fraud and try to hurt others for their own financial gain is not a personal preference, it is a conscious choice to go against the societal norms on ethics that have been established.

So, yeah, that's sort of where people are coming from when they say you shouldn't be doing business with him.

I believe in due process. There have been many people executed in the court of public opinion and not in all cases is wrong doing found. I can think of a very significant recent example.

We will find out if Brent is guilty of all of the crimes that have been alleged. They state in the article an investigation is taking place. If there is as much proof as some allege it will catch up to him. If that happens then I won't need to worry about buying from PWCC.

Brent built a better mouse trap and if he ruined it with greed that will be his own doing.

You have passed judgment on me for years so no concern here.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I believe in due process. There have been many people executed in the court of public opinion and not in all cases is wrong doing found. I can think of a very significant recent example.

We will find out if Brent is guilty of all of the crimes that have been alleged. They state in the article an investigation is taking place. If there is as much proof as some allege it will catch up to him. If that happens then I won't need to worry about buying from PWCC.

Brent built a better mouse trap and if he ruined it with greed that will be his own doing.

You have passed judgment on me for years so no concern here.

We will find out if Brent is charged. There's actually irrefutable proof of what he's alleged. You're choosing to stick your head in the sand because it suits your current position.

As far as me passing judgment on you, I think that's a bit melodramatic. I watched for years while you pumped CU with hype about the cards you were "investing" in and only chimed in when you made statements of factual error. The one time I "passed judgment on you" was here, on Net54, when you admitted that you were propping up the Panini Tyson market because you had so much invested in it. You took a lot of people for a ride but that's all good because you learned about it in an economics class.

According to Harvard, 1 in every 25 people is a sociopath.

Arthur

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

According to Harvard, 1 in every 25 people is a sociopath.

Arthur

David Hare and Linda Mealey both put it just above 1%. Your Harvard citation is the first time I've seen it claimed above 2%. Do you recall the name of the psychologist or whoever it was?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

We will find out if Brent is charged. There's actually irrefutable proof of what he's alleged. You're choosing to stick your head in the sand because it suits your current position.

As far as me passing judgment on you, I think that's a bit melodramatic. I watched for years while you pumped CU with hype about the cards you were "investing" in and only chimed in when you made statements of factual error. The one time I "passed judgment on you" was here, on Net54, when you admitted that you were propping up the Panini Tyson market because you had so much invested in it. You took a lot of people for a ride but that's all good because you learned about it in an economics class.

According to Harvard, 1 in every 25 people is a sociopath.

Arthur

Haha

Took people for a ride? I have never bid more than $500 for a copy on EBAY. I got in on the ground floor and yes there has been a pattern of me making people aware of cards and watching them explode in value. It has been nice.

I still have my PSA 10, 5 PSA 9's an 8 and a UK 8 so I got the pump part right but I somehow screwed up the dump part.

Sociopath. Now that is a first. Sorry my collection is much more important to me than fitting in online with the crowd. If you feel better about yourself because you won't bid in a PWCC auction that is great. Life will go on for both of us.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Exactly. I certainly don't care what one chooses to do with their money. I just find it ridiculous the moral authority that suggests you and I are bad actors for being willing to buy from them. I focus on my collection and mine only. For me I want to continue to build it and that means more to me than being worried about who I buy cards from.

Ethics is treating others how you want to be treated. Taking care of those close to you. Not who you buy trading cards from.

What kid when I was growing up got treated fairly by the local card dealer? None. EBAY has leveled the playing field where the collector can be the house. In many cases it is my understanding that the fees that get charged on consignments can actually be cheaper than doing it yourself. If anything the collector is netting more today from the sale of their cards than ever. That is a good thing.

Ethics imbues all aspects of your life: if you really hold those values you don't compartmentalize. i don't sometimes cheat people. I try not to cheat anyone regardless of whether it is a law client or an eBay purchaser.

Your last paragraph makes me feel sorry for you. I was treated very well by quite a few local card dealers when I was a kid. They went out of their way to help me, answered questions, and gave me deals on cards. That you never had that sort of good experience in the hobby as a kid goes a long way to explaining your 'I got mine and the rest of the world be damned' attitude about collecting.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Ethics imbues all aspects of your life: if you really hold those values you don't compartmentalize. i don't sometimes cheat people. I try not to cheat anyone regardless of whether it is a law client or an eBay purchaser.

Your last paragraph makes me feel sorry for you. I was treated very well by quite a few local card dealers when I was a kid. They went out of their way to help me, answered questions, and gave me deals on cards. That you never had that sort of good experience in the hobby as a kid goes a long way to explaining your 'I got mine and the rest of the world be damned' attitude about collecting.

Having a card dealer want to give you 50 cents on the dollar for your cards that you just pulled out of packs but also wants to sell you packs at full price is what was the norm in my experience but that has had no bearing on my outlook in life.

I view cards as one big scavenger hunt. They are out there and you have to find them. All of the economics courses I took when I was younger is what has shaped my views the most in all aspects of life.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Having a card dealer want to give you 50 cents on the dollar for your cards that you just pulled out of packs but also wants to sell you packs at full price is what was the norm in my experience but that has had no bearing on my outlook in life.

I view cards as one big scavenger hunt. They are out there and you have to find them. All of the economics courses I took when I was younger is what has shaped my views the most in all aspects of life.

That was the norm for me also. I didn't understand that as a kid. Then as a adult and former long time business owner I realized that was actually a really good deal. My main card shop guy used to travel to shows all over the US. He would pick up any oddball Wade Boggs cards he could find for me.

I also know i get great joy looking at the cards you post. I especially like the ones showing the AWA guys. I watched them as a kid in the 70's.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That was the norm for me also. I didn't understand that as a kid. Then as a adult and former long time business owner I realized that was actually a really good deal. My main card shop guy used to travel to shows all over the US. He would pick up any oddball Wade Boggs cards he could find for me.

I also know i get great joy looking at the cards you post. I especially like the ones showing the AWA guys. I watched them as a kid in the 70's.

I am glad you have taken the time to look at them and certainly that you enjoyed it and got some nostalgia out of it.

There was a question on Twitter today asking what advice you would give to someone who is considering collecting and my response was simply collect what you like.

To your point it was fair with their cost structure to operate that way but EBAY changed that and gave power to the collector. The barriers to entry in cards is just money so anyone with a few bucks can play. There was a great thread a few years ago on CU where a guy was flipping his way to a Mantle. The open market that EBAY created put many of the dealers on the ropes and allowed for scenarios where just your every day guy can try and play and win.

[Dpeck100]

I am starting to get the feeling that many of you don't go to EBAY frequently and see what has taken place over the past few years. There used to be a ton of sellers listing 99 cent auctions. Do a quick search and see what you find. You have Probstein that does some but many have extremely high opening bids, you have Greg Morris who has nearly 20,000 auctions running and only 175 of those are graded cards and loads of small time sellers with higher opening bids.

PWCC whether anyone likes it or not is the 800 pound gorilla and the number of listings they have in each monthly auctions has doubled in the last three years. While I think it is unlikely Brent goes to prison and his auction house folds in theory it could happen and if so you will see a lot of new sellers pop right back up and many of these same cards will be sold by them and the others will be sent to the two consignment dealers listed above and perhaps a new consignment seller will emerge.

I personally have never used any of them and have only sold my own cards. That said there are loads of collectors out there that like to move cards and find it easier to just send them off and let someone else do all of the work and pay a fee. I am in the brokerage business and many trade online for a few bucks while others think it is ridiculous to pay me in some cases four figures to process some trades. I choose to list my own cards because it is easy for me to do and I have carved out a name for myself in a little niche where I can get as high of price as anyone. Quite frankly PWCC gets in many cases much lower prices for the cards I collect because many items actually do better in a BIN scenario.

Regardless they take on all types of cards and have a beautiful listing format and are easy to deal with so for that they have many repeat buyers. They also happen to get the best material of anyone on EBAY. As I have stated before I have spent less than $1,000 in their auctions so I am not a big buyer of theirs but people are fooling themselves if they think that somehow they are insulating themselves by boycotting their auctions.

I get the concept of not wanting to do business with someone you feel is shady or unethical but I realize there are plenty that fit this profile in the trading card world and you are just trading one evil for another if that is your concern. If setting aside your desire to work on your collection and not do business with a specific seller is more important to you that is fine too but rest assured that if you have been buying graded cards for any length of time you have purchased some from someone that isn't entirely on the up and up.

The person I purchased a card from directly was the seller who went to a school in California and was looking for help on how to use a high powered cutting machine. I purchased the card from his auction and it is very possible the PSA graded card is trimmed. I could choose not to do business with him and I know exactly who is selling the card.

With PWCC you don't generally speaking. I keep track of many of the cards from the sets I collect so I knew when the 1982 Wrestling All Stars Series A PSA 10 Ric Flair was auctioned off it was Bob Evans or begsu. In most cases where there are higher population totals you won't know.

There are large numbers of collectors sending them material so in order for you to succeed you need these same collectors to quit doing it. As long as the process is smooth and the results are good I don't see this changing. In the mean time I will bid on cards in their auctions as they pop up and if something happens to them the cards will be sold elsewhere and I will bid on them there. This is a supply issue as I have stated and many will have to come to a crossroads in their collecting journey if they choose to not consider their offerings.

It is my understanding that this Gary Moser individual as been up to the same tricks for twenty years. Where did he sell those cards before PWCC? It has to be through some of the more popular auction houses I would think. Did he sell them at shows? Perhaps and once they are released into the collecting world they could turn up anywhere. There could be guys on the BST board who have unknowingly owned a card he has handled and had a great transaction with a board member. Did they do anything wrong? This stuff is out there.

On the modern side many of the cards were sold directly from one dealer to EBAY buyers and a direct website. Just imagine one of these collectors saying I want to sell this Lebron and creating an EBAY listing and selling it themselves. It has most likely happened so one avenue is thought of as totally fine and another is bad. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

PWCC is obviously the greater danger here, given all the PWCC fanboys tying themselves in knots trying to defend a company corrupt to the core.

PWCCs danger is illustrated here. No one defends Moser. He's scum. It's consensus. PWCC is the one with the veneer of respectability. It's the cover people seem to use to try and defend their practices. In turn, they're given further cover by PWCC, whose goal it is to normalize the arguably criminal and unarguably unethical methodology by which they run their racket. They, like many here defending them, want to maintain the status quo because it's lining their pocket. It's disgusting.

I really think there are some motivations here that should be brought to light. I'm just guessing but I think defenders of PWCC to a man have something to lose if PWCC goes down. Either their cards are in the vault, or they've made a lot of money over the years consigning to this shadiest of shady auction houses.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMntna2Young

PWCC is obviously the greater danger here, given all the PWCC fanboys tying themselves in knots trying to defend a company corrupt to the core.

PWCCs danger is illustrated here. No one defends Moser. He's scum. It's consensus. PWCC is the one with the veneer of respectability. It's the cover people seem to use to try and defend their practices. In turn, they're given further cover by PWCC, whose goal it is to normalize the arguably criminal and unarguably unethical methodology by which they run their racket. They, like many here defending them, want to maintain the status quo because it's lining their pocket. It's disgusting.

I really think there are some motivations here that should be brought to light. I'm just guessing but I think defenders of PWCC to a man have something to lose if PWCC goes down. Either their cards are in the vault, or they've made a lot of money over the years consigning to this shadiest of shady auction houses.

I only see a few people suggesting in this thread they will continue to buy from PWCC.

My total spending's are right at $1,000 and I have never once sent them a card for sale.

Not a PWCC fan boy but a market participant and that is it.

[RiceBondsMntna2Young]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I only see a few people suggesting in this thread they will continue to buy from PWCC.

My total spending's are right at $1,000 and I have never once sent them a card for sale.

Not a PWCC fan boy but a market participant and that is it.

I actually wasn't talking about you. I don't see you defending their practices. You just tolerate them because they have cards you want. There are others who refuse to acknowledge the terrible harm they're doing to the hobby. If you can tolerate their shadiness, that's one thing. If you call the shady stuff they're doing not shady, or are somehow unconvinced that they're doing really shady things...then I don't know what more there is to say...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Card doctors have always found outlets for their cards. This has been going on since the advent of TPG. On the vintage side, and apparently to a greater extent than I realized, on the modern side. There doubtless are guys who won't take them. But many, or even most, will.

With all this happening, and people's obvious concern, has anyone other than Al Crisafulli come forward and said not in my auction?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Card doctors have always found outlets for their cards. This has been going on since the advent of TPG. On the vintage side, and apparently to a greater extent than I realized, on the modern side. There doubtless are guys who won't take them. But many, or even most, will.

With all this happening, and people's obvious concern, has anyone other than Al Crisafulli come forward and said not in my auction?

I figure if I come out and make a statement it just looks like a cry for attention as a little guy, but I think everyone on Net54 is pretty clear on where I stand. If not let me state it outright. I will never knowingly have ANY business dealings with a known card doctor.