PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[drcy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

This is where I get lost. What needs to be disclosed? Any alterations? Some people clearly have different definitions of what alterations are. Do you have to abide by hobby norms? Hobby norms would be to advertise the condition assigned by a TPG as the condition of the card. Hobby norms have never been to disclose condition details beyond the TPG grade.

It is perfectly legal to trim, recolor and "conserve" a trading card. The illegality is when known financially material alterations are not disclosed.

Most people sell a graded card by what the holder says is the grade, and that, of course, is perfectly fine and normal. However, if you happen to know that a numerically graded card is actually altered, you legally have to disclose that. It would be considered fraud if it is proven you knew and didn't disclose. So it is fine and normal to defer to the TPG's opinion at sale, but the TPG opinion isn't a cover if you know that opinion is wrong. I'm, of course, not talking about a generous grade (A VgEx for a Vg card) but when the seller knows for a fact that, despite what the label says, a card has been altered, the label's identification is obviously incorrect (a T206 Heinie Wagner accidentally labelled a Honus Wagner) or the autograph is a forgery. A PSA typo does not allow the seller to sell a Heinie Wagner as a Honus Wagner, or a $5 bill as $500 bill.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by drcy

It is perfectly legal to trim, recolor and "conserve" a trading card. The illegality is when known the financially material alterations are not disclosed.

Most people sell a graded card by what the holder says is the grade and the buyer, and that, of course, is perfectly fine and normal. However, if you happen to know that a numerically graded card is actually altered, you legally have to disclose that. It would be considered fraud if it is proven you knew and didn't disclose. So it is fine and normal to defer to the TPG's opinion at sale, but the TPG opinion isn't a cover if you know that opinion is wrong. I'm not, of course, not talking about a generous grade (A VgEx for a Vg card) but when the seller knows for a fact that, despite what the label says, a card has been altered, the label's identification is obviously incorrect (a T206 Heinie Wagner accidentally labelled a Honus Wagner) or the autograph is a forgery. A PSA typo does not allow the seller to sell a Heinie Wagner as a Honus Wagner, or a $5 bill as $500 bill.

A number of us have explained until we're blue in the... fingers?

Apparently willful obtuseness is a sign of intelligence and debating skill now-a-days.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Apparently willful obtuseness is a sign of intelligence and debating skill now-a-days.

How very true. And they are definitely related to the Yeahbuts family.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For a slabbed card anyhow, I would define materiality as any alteration that -- if known to the grader -- would have resulted in the card not receiving a numerical grade. Best I can do off the top of my head. I'll think about it some more.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For a slabbed card anyhow, I would define materiality as any alteration that -- if known to the grader -- would have resulted in the card not receiving a numerical grade. Best I can do off the top of my head. I'll think about it some more.

I would say that numerical grade. If you press a card and trim it so what used to be a 2 is now a 6, that is a material fact IMO and needs to be disclosed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I would say that numerical grade. If you press a card and trim it so what used to be a 2 is now a 6, that is a material fact IMO and needs to be disclosed.

I think we are saying the same thing, because if the improvement was known it would have been rejected altogether the second time around. But I'm fine with that formulation.

[Kenny Cole]

Fair enough. Now that I think about it more, I agree that we're saying the same thing.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

A number of us have explained until we're blue in the... fingers?

Apparently willful obtuseness is a sign of intelligence and debating skill now-a-days.

People are casting wide nets and using terms like "fraud" and "illegality" a little too loosely. I don't see too many people here disclose every wax stain removed or pencil mark erased.

People in glass houses I guess...

[drcy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

People are casting wide nets and using terms like "fraud" and "illegality" a little too loosely. I don't see too many people here disclose every wax stain removed or pencil mark erased.

People in glass houses I guess...

I used the term illegality and fraud correctly.

Trimming and recoloring are clearly financially material. Whether or not a wax stain removal is financially material, and if so how much, I'll leave others to debate. There is a spectrum, and I don't think any collector thinks all alterations are equal in seriousness and financial consequences. Maybe one collector thinks removing a wax stain reduces the "natural state" value by a nickel, and no one is going to be prosecuted for fraud, or labeled a fraudster, over a nickel. I think your argument, not mine, is casting too wide a net.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

People are casting wide nets and using terms like "fraud" and "illegality" a little too loosely. I don't see too many people here disclose every wax stain removed or pencil mark erased.

People in glass houses I guess...

I don't see a lot of folks disclosing wax stain removal or pencil marks erased either. But that doesn't mean it's ok just because most people aren't disclosing this stuff. If they know about the alteration, and don't disclose it, it is fraud. I would bet a lot of the guys selling on the BST honestly don't know of any alterations to their cards, so there is no fraud there. The debate should remain with situations where there is a card doctor knowingly submitting altered cards to a TPG with intent to deceive buyers. These little one offs about what if this or what if that or why is it illegal to trim a card are just distracting the conversation. At this point, it should really be clear (if you read the threads) why it is fraud and illegal to not disclose alterations if you know about them.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by drcy

It is perfectly legal to trim, recolor and "conserve" a trading card. The illegality is when known the financially material alterations are not disclosed.

Most people sell a graded card by what the holder says is the grade and the buyer, and that, of course, is perfectly fine and normal. However, if you happen to know that a numerically graded card is actually altered, you legally have to disclose that. It would be considered fraud if it is proven you knew and didn't disclose. So it is fine and normal to defer to the TPG's opinion at sale, but the TPG opinion isn't a cover if you know that opinion is wrong. I'm not, of course, not talking about a generous grade (A VgEx for a Vg card) but when the seller knows for a fact that, despite what the label says, a card has been altered, the label's identification is obviously incorrect (a T206 Heinie Wagner accidentally labelled a Honus Wagner) or the autograph is a forgery. A PSA typo does not allow the seller to sell a Heinie Wagner as a Honus Wagner, or a $5 bill as $500 bill.

What do you define as financially material? Who can define that? The buyer? A reasonable buyer? Hobby norms?

Hobby norms generally accept erasing a dealer's pencil mark "$5" from the back of a postcard, right? Many collectors are fine with removing wax stains, but others aren't. Most people here are fine with soaking cards.

I've never seen any of these things disclosed on the BST here, have you?

[1880nonsports]

either way although with the patina the aesthetics marry the suggestion of it's age (I collect 19th century fine sterling safes and cases) BUT if an item is degrading - remediation/conservation is common sense and accepted everywhere. THAT HANDLE IS OFF THE CHARTS!
As for baseball cards - the people that do these manipulations are just carrion looking for and often times finding easy prey. The registry and it's mine is bigger allows the scammers (and tpgs) to exploit a human flaw most of us have.
As for the doctors - unlike what their mothers had been telling them all their adult lives while living in her basement - THEY ALL FOUND JOBS.....

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

either way although with the patina the aesthetics marry the suggestion of it's age (I collect 19th century fine sterling safes and cases) BUT if an item is degrading - remediation/conservation is common sense and accepted everywhere. THAT HANDLE IS OFF THE CHARTS!
As for baseball cards - the people that do these manipulations are just carrion looking for and often times finding easy prey. The registry and it's mine is bigger allows the scammers (and tpgs) to exploit a human flaw most of us have.
As for the doctors - unlike what their mothers had been telling them all their adult lives while living in her basement - THEY ALL FOUND JOBS.....

I was undecided what to do until I spoke with the silver conservator; at that point it was a no-brainer because I would not be comfortable owing something so special that I knew was deteriorating. While the entire bat is beautiful, the part I like the most is the image of the player, which I think beautifully captures a 19th century baseball player. While the look obviously is a lot different than before treatment, the conservator did tell me that the patina to a skilled eye does evidence that it is an old object.