PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

That’s a pretty incendiary statement to make given the information we have so far.

Just how widespread is what we have going on right now?


Last I checked there are around 375 or so cards that have been “outed” on BO, plus a list of additional suspects that currently could take the total over 1000 if all of them were to be similarly outed. Note that we have no information that any of the outed cards has been reviewed by the TPG and the finding of the review confirms the findings of the message board sleuths.

While I don’t doubt that there is some validity in what has been raised I think generalizations such as this are premature, not yet backed up by publicly available “hard” evidence and are therefore irresponsible as they can cause further unease/damage that may ultimately not be justified.

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

Appreciate the kind words Peter but let me say a few things. First off, I have no idea how many altered cards are circulating in holders. We are all speculating, I think, about just how pervasive this problem may be.

However, I have been involved in the hobby for 35 years and I have heard so many stories, some of them entirely under the radar and never made public, that I have to assume that based on these examples the number has to be substantial. I don't attend shows and don't converse much with other dealers and collectors. And I have to also assume they know hundreds of examples too, since everybody in the hobby is well aware of the problems with graded cards.

So whether it is 1000, 5000, or 10,000 cards, I have no idea. But do I think the industry has a major problem to deal with? Absolutely. We're not talking about a few outlier examples, this is a major hobby black eye.

Of course, we also don't know how this will all play out, but we're going to find out.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Appreciate the kind words Peter but let me say a few things. First off, I have no idea how many altered cards are circulating in holders. We are all speculating, I think, about just how pervasive this problem may be.

Your own expert confirms what I said. This is all speculation based on what we’ve heard and nobody really knows for sure.

The only things we know for sure are:

1) unfortunately the number of doctored items in slabs is greater than zero
2) in all likelihood we will never be able to identify every tainted item
3) in all likelihood it will not be possible to prevent additional doctored items from making it into slabs because as the TPGs get better so do the scammers.

What we also know is that the creation and growth of TPGs has made the situation a lot better than it otherwise would have been, and that the TPGs seem to be committed to continuing to try and continually improve.

I’d like to see all of the innocent collectors affected in this latest “outbreak” spared from harm. I’d also like to see this latest outbreak contained so that it doesn’t spread and hurt other innocent collectors. The one thing I am confident of is that whipping up an angry mob to go after the one stakeholder that has the greatest potential to make things better for everyone, especially when there is no evidence that they were involved in nefarious actions or doing anything underhanded, seems like a bad idea to me.

The defense rests.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry is very careful and diplomatic, to his credit. I know what I know, David. I have 25 years of knowledge of what goes on in this industry. You can think what you want and spin as you please. Nothing personal, we just see it differently. And you acknowledge your bias pretty clearly, you want to see the harm minimized. I just want the truth. I am tired of this crap being spun and swept under the rug. We need real change. If PSA genuinely wants to lead the industry, this is a good opportunity to show some meaningful leadership.

[Goudey77]

My point of spamming this video is to to drive home the point that all TPG's should have a stance and be transparent on this topic. It is very clear that the CGC folks are comfortable talking restoration and have built a business model to address the various scenarios. It's the type of excellence we should expect from TPG's.
I understand that taking a stance and speaking about it puts your company under more scrutiny for "getting it right". Integrity and responsibility is what we consumers pay for.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Your own expert confirms what I said. This is all speculation based on what we’ve heard and nobody really knows for sure.

The only things we know for sure are:

1) unfortunately the number of doctored items in slabs is greater than zero
2) in all likelihood we will never be able to identify every tainted item
3) in all likelihood it will not be possible to prevent additional doctored items from making it into slabs because as the TPGs get better so do the scammers.

What we also know is that the creation and growth of TPGs has made the situation a lot better than it otherwise would have been, and that the TPGs seem to be committed to continuing to try and continually improve.

I’d like to see all of the innocent collectors affected in this latest “outbreak” spared from harm. I’d also like to see this latest outbreak contained so that it doesn’t spread and hurt other innocent collectors. The one thing I am confident of is that whipping up an angry mob to go after the one stakeholder that has the greatest potential to make things better for everyone, especially when there is no evidence that they were involved in nefarious actions or doing anything underhanded, seems like a bad idea to me.

The defense rests.

Response:

1. I do not say PSA is doing anything underhanded from a criminal perspective. There have been allegations made, but until somebody offers proof, they are just allegations and PSA is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

2. Some of the alterations that have gotten through are so blatant that they are indicative of gross negligence/recklessness. The argument they represent only a small percentage of the cards PSA grade each year is irrelevant. Tell that to the person who plucked down a 4 figure sum to have a card graded, only to find his 5 or 6 figure purchase made in reliance on that evaluation missed the alteration. If a car was made with a manufacturing defect that only 1% of the cars on the road would manifest the problem, there would still be a recall.

3. Truth in advertising. Don't say your product is something you know it is not. A cursory visual inspection WILL NOT detect an expertly done alteration, which alterations you and everybody else should know are being done as we speak by card doctors incentivized by the staggering profits they are making.

4. Simple common sense. How the hell can a tobacco card over a century old have survived in mint or gem mint condition? Yes, I get it that there are the once in a decade finds of vintage uncirculated cards. But that is not what I am talking about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Right, to be clear, I agree with Corey's first point and I continue to think PSA is not intentionally grading altered cards, taking money for favors, etc. I do, though, question the adequacy of their response to the latest revelations.

Interestingly, years ago, PCGS apparently had enough of certain people trying to get bad coins past them that they sued several coin dealers. to my knowledge PSA has not done the same.

[barrysloate]

Corey's analogy to an auto recall is quite relevant here. PSA should offer a recall to anybody who wants one or all of their cards reviewed, at no charge. And if they find an altered card during the review, they should work out an amicable settlement with the owner. If the number of altered cards is indeed small, then it won't cost them much, and the amount of good will and product trust they will garner will be enormous.

Of course there are problems with this business model- they could choose to avoid seeing an alteration in an expensive card- but the idea of a recall is a pretty damn good plan.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Corey's analogy to an auto recall is quite relevant here. PSA should offer a recall to anybody who wants one or all of their cards reviewed, at no charge. And if they find an altered card during the review, they should work out an amicable settlement with the owner. If the number of altered cards is indeed small, then it won't cost them much, and the amount of good will and product trust they will garner will be enormous.

Of course there are problems with this business model- they could choose to avoid seeing an alteration in an expensive card- but the idea of a recall is a pretty damn good plan.

They need to be even more proactive in my view, tell us which cards were submitted by known or strongly suspected card doctors because how the hell do we know. Of course it will never happen because of the pressure it would put on the reserve. So we're left to fend for ourselves. And even worse, they then push it off onto the sellers many or most of whom are innocents.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

Agreed. It's been going on for quite a long time by a significant number of dealers. It's a very lucrative business turning $5 raw cards in to $200 graded cards for the Set Registry. Here's one example that should have rocked the collecting world when it was revealed but it just seemed to just fade into obscurity perhaps by being overshadowed by the issue of rampant shill bidding.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...19&postcount=1

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

YES, a speck. And yes, you listen to people who know more than you do and that you respect, like Barry and Peter. It's a road map for success in anything you do...like determining how long this fraud has been allowed to go on, for instance.