How do you think it all shakes out

[Johnny630]

Big Money 6 figure investors will find another place to make money.

TPGSwill thrive after the smoke clears people still think their collectibles are worth more money in their holders......sheeple will continue to buy holders not cards.

Mid Grade and Off Grade Collectors will always be around bottom feeding for the cheapest cards they can possibly find to fill their sets.

Card Doctors Will Never Go Away....When the market gets over bought they flock when it sells off they disapear.... nothing new same old same...

This has always been a dark, dirty, behind closed door industry filled with fraud if you don't know by now wake up and smell the roses of reality

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Big Money 6 figure investors will find another place to make money.

TPGSwill thrive after the smoke clears people still think their collectibles are worth more money in their holders......sheeple will continue to buy holders not cards.

Mid Grade and Off Grade Collectors will always be around bottom feeding for the cheapest cards they can possibly find to fill their sets.

Card Doctors Will Never Go Away....When the market gets over bought they flock when it sells off they disapear.... nothing new same old same...

This has always been a dark, dirty, behind closed door industry filled with fraud if you don't know by now wake up and smell the roses of reality

Do you really think it'll be that much longer before repro cards are indiscernible from original? Altered original will come back into favor over indiscernible fake.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

TPGSwill thrive after the smoke clears people still think their collectibles are worth more money in their holders......sheeple will continue to buy holders not cards.

People don't need to think it, because it is true. I have been downsizing my collection. I have been able to get far more for nice condition cards graded than ungraded. I had only graded 1 card prior to 4 years ago when I started downsizing, but I refuse to throw away money selling for pennies on the dollar while someone else makes two or three times their money.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

People don't need to think it, because it is true. I have been downsizing my collection. I have been able to get far more for nice condition cards graded than ungraded. I had only graded 1 card prior to 4 years ago when I started downsizing, but I refuse to throw away money selling for pennies on the dollar while someone else makes two or three times their money.

Yes, unfortunately that has been the case in recent years. But this thread focuses on what will happen moving forward. The extent of the TPG's ineptitude is just beginning to be revealed, and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Moser alone has been submitting altered cards for grading for over 15 years, and nobody knows how widespread they really are. There are likely countless others that have never been (and never will be) revealed. Serious doubt has been cast in all of our collections.

The TPG's level of arrogance and denial was made very apparent in PSA's recent Letter to collectors. They care only about profits... not the good of the hobby. So hopefully the word will spread outside of these forums. Hopefully Law Enforcement will take notice, and actually do something along the lines of Mastro/Legendary/Rogers. Those of us who are focused on integrity can only boycott these entities and try to deliver the message to a far wider audience. Money should not be the only factor driving the hobby.

That said... Nothing is likely to change.

[T_Hamilton]

Does anyone know where this Gary Moser guy lives? man it would be great to show up at his house... vigilante style!

[PowderedH2O]

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

Yes. Mail fraud and wire fraud, if sold using the mails or the wires (internet). Lots of posts on this in prior threads. Not going to repeat them.

[PowderedH2O]

Well that was helpful. Still don't see it. Oh well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Well that was helpful. Still don't see it. Oh well.

I don't mean to be rude not doing a full reply but I just don't want to repeat and debate the same things I've said before. What you describe is classic fraud.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

seriously.Yes PSA is incompetent only to this point in the story. It remains to be seen if they are implicit to the crime. I personally believe they are. You don't have to be a Lawyer to know for FACT what they are doing is fraud. It is almost laughable if you don't think it's not illegal to HIDE material facts about the cards they are reselling.

Let people crack cards, doctor the F out of them and get higher grades on the resubmit. THEN DON'T TELL ANYONE. DING DING DING. Hello McFly, anybody home! They do it over and over and over again with 10 different characters for 15-20 years. Once again, please listen to the lawyers who know much more about the law then you do. I have never wasted 1 nickel on a lawyer but have paid them thousands in my time. Always worth every damn penny. AND I actually do what they tell me..

Imagine that. listening to people who know more than you do... You should try it sometime.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I trim a card. I get it past PSA. I sell it, without disclosing that I trimmed it. Or my co-conspirator sells it for me knowing I trimmed it. If someone truly wants to argue that's not fraud, well, I give up, I'm not debating it any more. Nor am I debating that the federal mail and wire fraud statutes apply if I do this, repeatedly, using the mails or wires.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I trim a card. I get it past PSA. I sell it, without disclosing that I trimmed it. Or my co-conspirator sells it for me knowing I trimmed it. If someone truly wants to argue that's not fraud, well, I give up, I'm not debating it any more. Nor am I debating that the federal mail and wire fraud statutes apply if I do this, repeatedly, using the mails or wires.

Getting it past PSA is the biggest problem here that too many aren't talking about. I don't have cards graded, so I don't care...but many here are trusting PSA with their wallets and PSA is apparently no more capable of spotting a problem than you or I. They are "victims" (based on their response) not experts or authenticators. They are you. You pay for that?

[STL1944]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

I think a better analogy here using cars would be someone buying a car with 100,000 miles on it, rolling back to odometer (Ferris Bueller style) and then selling it again as a "Grandma driven special with only 15,000 miles on it" when in fact the engine has 100,000 miles on it.

[CobbSpikedMe]

The actual act that is illegal is not the trimming of the card, or submitting it to PSA to try to get a number grade, or selling it. I don't know why folks continue to ask why these things are illegal and then act like they don't get it when someone explains fraud. The illegal part is when you do this over and over and DON'T DISCLOSE it to the buyers when you know the fact is the card is altered and doesn't deserve a number grade. This is fraud. Simple. This isn't a hard concept to grasp people. They are misrepresenting what they are selling and doing it on purpose to get more money than they should from buyers that are being duped. Over and over again. The actual trimming of the card isn't what the lawyers are saying is illegal. Submitting the trimmed card to a TPG is not what they are saying is illegal. Lying to the buyers to get record sales is where the fraud starts.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

Here's why it's illegal:

Alteration of cards is considered a material fact when it comes to the value of those cards. Trimmed, recolored, whatever cards are deemed to be far less valuable by the vast majority of collectors. If a person is performing alteration and then selling the card to someone without disclosing the alteration, they have concealed a material fact relating to the value of the item. Knowingly withholding a piece of material information in a transaction like that is fraud.

In addition to that, when you purchase a PSA membership, or submit through them, you agree that do not have knowledge that the cards are altered. By knowingly submitting cards that have been altered, you are violating that agreement, potentially committing a fraudulent act against PSA since you are exposing them financially.

The second aspect might be a civil liability only, as opposed to criminal, not sure. The first one, however, is definitely a criminal violation.

To put it in simplistic terms: Gary Moser/PWCC are representing that they have, for example, an unaltered 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle for sale. However, they know it's altered. They are saying that they are selling one thing when they are selling something else. That's Fraud 101.

[PowderedH2O]

That was the response I was requesting. Thanks for your courtesy. Nice to know someone can reply without rudeness or being condescending.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

That was the response I was requesting. Thanks for your courtesy. Nice to know someone can reply without rudeness or being condescending.

My apologies I did not mean to come across that way. In many threads I've explained this in detail and then people who don't know the law insist that I'm wrong, and it gets frustrating. I didn't mean to take that frustration out on you, I know you were simply trying to understand and not debating. My bad. Tabe said it well. Fraud is either the intentional misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact, and when you do that in connection with a sale in interstate commerce, it can be federal mail or wire fraud. It's the sale that makes it illegal; just altering the card isn't. That PSA slabbed the card is irrelevant, the seller still knows the card is altered and doesn't merit the grade. In other words, the negligence of another party doesn't cleanse the fraud.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I'm going to ask, because so many of you are lawyers or experts in law and I am not. Forget about ethics or morals, but what is illegal about altering cards, resubmitting them to PSA, and then selling them?

I say this because I worked in the car business for years and customers often washed, waxed, Armor-alled, and detailed their cars before trading them in. They would buff out scratches. Occasionally we found Bondo to cover a dent. Our appraiser would look over the car and make a decision. It was what it was. We couldn't go back a month later and call the person that traded in the car and claim some sort of deception. If it got past our appraiser then so be it.

If Gary gets a card and doctors it up and submits it to PSA, it is PSA's job to catch the doctoring. If he has a PSA 4 that becomes a PSA 7, it is what it is. That card is now a PSA 7, whether you like the way it got there or not. If PWCC takes this PSA 7 and sells it on ebay as a PSA 7 beautiful example of this card, are they lying? Is it not a PSA 7? It says so right on the slab.

To me, the only legal issues would be if they had an insider at PSA that was giving them some sort of an advantage, or if they intentionally undersold the first cards so that they could purchase them for resale. As far as the trimming, chemical bathing, or whatever... that seems to be a PSA issue of incompetence.

I think this practice is misleading, unethical, and deceptive. But, my question is this: Is the altering of cards, submitting them, and then selling the newly slabbed item actually illegal?

I worked in cars for a while too. While customers getting one over on the dealership wasn't common, it did happen.
The reason the dealership had no recourse in most cases was that a dealer was generally seen as an "expert" who should know better.
Also, most of the things you mention are considered entirely acceptable, and the cleaning, waxing and buffing as well as mechanical repairs would be done by the dealer anyway before resale. We did have one where the customer lied about the mileage when they filled out the title. We found out when we sold it and the registry kicked back the title transfer since the previous transfer had been at 80K and we showed 50K or so. Making the supposed actual mileage in the 150 range.

The opposite was also true. We had sold a couple reliants to a taxi company that added the roof lights then never made a payment. Dealership get them back and added a fake convertible roof on one and a weird reverse landau top on the other to hide the holes from the lights. One of the sales people sold one without disclosing that it had been a taxi. Private extended warranty caught it, legal action ensued briefly, and the place had to pay 3x damages.
Try selling an odd looking Reliant that you own for something like 18K ….

Short version, if I sell an altered card, I might be able to fall back on the "hey I had no idea" defense. (Probably less likely since I publickly state that I can probably tell, plus I'd just say "damn I missed that" and take the card back)
A large full time dealer and/or grading company can't hide behind cluelessness as they're the "experts" *

*I could be wrong about that, not being a lawyer