I guess this is goodbye

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Without wanting to violate the policy of not talking about politics, this whole discussion about whether Leon should take down the PWCC ad banner (and now, the implication that he has no cojones and has been bought) is another instance of the same, tired thing we see every day.

Person A looks at what person B is doing. Person A does not approve and suggests (asks, demands, protests, boycotts, whatever) that person B change their behavior. If person B feels enough pressure, he may end up doing so, even though it costs him revenue and may not be what he truly believes is right. Person A then pats himself on the back, for having superior principles, and for pressuring person B into doing the "right thing."

I have enjoyed this forum for many years now, and I do not take it for granted. It is a much needed contribution to the hobby/business and that is a gross understatement. Plus, it is enjoyable relaxation. I don't do facebook or twitter, never have, never will, but I like it here at this site.

Yet, I have never paid one penny to support this site and I am certain the vast majority of people here haven't, either. So when people who use this site frequently, and don't support it financially, start saying people like Leon, who don't summarily ban PWCC from providing financial support, lack cojones and are "bought," I get annoyed.

If someone who wants to self-congratulate themself for having cojones and being above "being bought" wants to PM Leon and offer to pay him whatever PWCC is paying for that ad, in exchange for replacing that ad with something else, THAT would be a principled position. Pressuring someone else to give up a revenue stream, when that person is already providing such a valuable service to the rest of us, free, is selfish and disingenuous.

Being principled with someone else's money is not being principled.

I completely disagree. You are making it about money when it's an issue of morals and integrity. Leon, and anyone else, is certainly free to do whatever, but that doesn't excuse the behavior of the company they keep. If taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to you, then so be it. But you have no credibility when it comes to judging others based on principles, as you apparently have none.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I completely disagree. You are making it about money when it's an issue of morals and integrity. Leon, and anyone else, is certainly free to do whatever, but that doesn't excuse the behavior of the company they keep. If taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to you, then so be it. But you have no credibility when it comes to judging others based on principles, as you apparently have none.

Please..... Did I say taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to me? What I said was, Leon owns his site, so he gets to make the call, period.

I primarily collect GU stuff. There used to be a great website called gameuseduniverse. I loved it over there. They had a bunch of really great members who were very helpful to me, like Mike Specht, Dave Meidema, and Bud Hillerich (who told me my GU Terry Felton bat was one of only 4 made for him.) I got to know Chris Cavalier and that's where I met Dave Grob and others. Really great group of people.

Well, Chris sold the site to Ken Goldin of Goldin Auctions, and right away the "Goldin Rule" was instituted. It said that criticism of items listed in Goldin Auctions was not permitted - and questions needed to be sent to Ken directly, and privately. As I watched that rule be enforced several times, I started to become uncomfortable with what I was seeing, and found net54 as an alternative site.

Some of you may remember the Babe Ruth catchers glove incident a few years ago. Goldin was auctioning a glove that was thought to have been used by Ruth as a teenager at his industrial school. Some members here pointed out differences between pictures of Ruth with his glove, and the glove being auctioned. Then, some of those who were raising questions were apparently contacted by an attorney, either issuing, or threatening, a cease and desist notice.

For me, that was it. Free speech was the norm over here, and over at gameuseduniverse, not so much. I stopped going over there.

On April 23 of this year, I received an email from Chris Cavalier, which begins: "I hope this email finds you doing well. Recently, there were a few people who tried to reach me through the Game Used Universe site. As the site's founder, I am sure it seemed logical to try to reach me through the GUU. Unfortunately, my account there has been banned by the site's new owner and I am no longer able to post there or respond to anyone trying to message me through the site."

Chris went on to provide his email address at Heritage, where he is now a Consignment Director. I wish him the best and consider him to be one of the many "good guys" who used to be at that site. Out of curiosity, I checked out GUU (had problems logging in as I'd forgotten my password.) It looks like a ghost town compared to what it used to be.

So........ When I see people jumping all over Leon because he didn't instantly ban one of his advertisers over this recently breaking scandal, and then when I see people who spend quite a lot of time enjoying this site (for free) imply Leon has no "cojones" and that he can be "bought," I think it is unfair to the extreme.

Running this website costs money, and maintaining civility among all of us must be rather challenging at times. I agree with a previous poster that Leon manages this site, and keeps us all in line, in a very calm and fair way. For example, the PWCC ad issue is now resolved, and as it turns out, Leon't patient approach, to let things play out, was better than some sort of knee-jerk reaction some here advocated.

What I don't want is for the aggravation Leon has to put up with to become so great that he starts looking for his own "Goldin Parachute." Imagine if he sold this site to another auction house, or even PSA (or for that matter, PWCC.) New rules might be instituted, the current moderators would quit as they wouldn't be able to stomach those new rules, and I would have to find another hobby website, rather than watch this site degenerate the way of GUU.

Bottom line is this: I am comfortable here. If at some point I become uncomfortable, I will simply leave. But I will not try to tell Leon how to run his site, and I certainly will not insult him. If you interpret that as me having no principles, so be it.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please..... Did I say taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to me? What I said was, Leon owns his site, so he gets to make the call, period.

I primarily collect GU stuff. There used to be a great website called gameuseduniverse. I loved it over there. They had a bunch of really great members who were very helpful to me, like Mike Specht, Dave Meidema, and Bud Hillerich (who told me my GU Terry Felton bat was one of only 4 made for him.) I got to know Chris Cavalier and that's where I met Dave Grob and others. Really great group of people.

Well, Chris sold the site to Ken Goldin of Goldin Auctions, and right away the "Goldin Rule" was instituted. It said that criticism of items listed in Goldin Auctions was not permitted - and questions needed to be sent to Ken directly, and privately. As I watched that rule be enforced several times, I started to become uncomfortable with what I was seeing, and found net54 as an alternative site.

Some of you may remember the Babe Ruth catchers glove incident a few years ago. Goldin was auctioning a glove that was thought to have been used by Ruth as a teenager at his industrial school. Some members here pointed out differences between pictures of Ruth with his glove, and the glove being auctioned. Then, some of those who were raising questions were apparently contacted by an attorney, either issuing, or threatening, a cease and desist notice.

For me, that was it. Free speech was the norm over here, and over at gameuseduniverse, not so much. I stopped going over there.

On April 23 of this year, I received an email from Chris Cavalier, which begins: "I hope this email finds you doing well. Recently, there were a few people who tried to reach me through the Game Used Universe site. As the site's founder, I am sure it seemed logical to try to reach me through the GUU. Unfortunately, my account there has been banned by the site's new owner and I am no longer able to post there or respond to anyone trying to message me through the site."

Chris went on to provide his email address at Heritage, where he is now a Consignment Director. I wish him the best and consider him to be one of the many "good guys" who used to be at that site. Out of curiosity, I checked out GUU (had problems logging in as I'd forgotten my password.) It looks like a ghost town compared to what it used to be.

So........ When I see people jumping all over Leon because he didn't instantly ban one of his advertisers over this recently breaking scandal, and then when I see people who spend quite a lot of time enjoying this site (for free) imply Leon has no "cojones" and that he can be "bought," I think it is unfair to the extreme.

Running this website costs money, and maintaining civility among all of us must be rather challenging at times. I agree with a previous poster that Leon manages this site, and keeps us all in line, in a very calm and fair way. For example, the PWCC ad issue is now resolved, and as it turns out, Leon't patient approach, to let things play out, was better than some sort of knee-jerk reaction some here advocated.

What I don't want is for the aggravation Leon has to put up with to become so great that he starts looking for his own "Goldin Parachute." Imagine if he sold this site to another auction house, or even PSA (or for that matter, PWCC.) New rules might be instituted, the current moderators would quit as they wouldn't be able to stomach those new rules, and I would have to find another hobby website, rather than watch this site degenerate the way of GUU.

Bottom line is this: I am comfortable here. If at some point I become uncomfortable, I will simply leave. But I will not try to tell Leon how to run his site, and I certainly will not insult him. If you interpret that as me having no principles, so be it.

GUU is a ghost town because of every reason you mention. Its a shame and Ken doesn't seem to care at all. That has pushed me to the Facebook groups which are much better anyway.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Jim65

GUU is a ghost town because of every reason you mention. Its a shame and Ken doesn't seem to care at all. That has pushed me to the Facebook groups which are much better anyway.

Learned all I needed to know about the "new Ken Goldin" when he had a number of autographed jerseys in his first auction where the jerseys were bootlegs. When I informed him of this, he said he didn't care that the jerseys were fakes so long as the autographs were real.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please..... Did I say taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to me? What I said was, Leon owns his site, so he gets to make the call, period.

I primarily collect GU stuff. There used to be a great website called gameuseduniverse. I loved it over there. They had a bunch of really great members who were very helpful to me, like Mike Specht, Dave Meidema, and Bud Hillerich (who told me my GU Terry Felton bat was one of only 4 made for him.) I got to know Chris Cavalier and that's where I met Dave Grob and others. Really great group of people.

Well, Chris sold the site to Ken Goldin of Goldin Auctions, and right away the "Goldin Rule" was instituted. It said that criticism of items listed in Goldin Auctions was not permitted - and questions needed to be sent to Ken directly, and privately. As I watched that rule be enforced several times, I started to become uncomfortable with what I was seeing, and found net54 as an alternative site.

Some of you may remember the Babe Ruth catchers glove incident a few years ago. Goldin was auctioning a glove that was thought to have been used by Ruth as a teenager at his industrial school. Some members here pointed out differences between pictures of Ruth with his glove, and the glove being auctioned. Then, some of those who were raising questions were apparently contacted by an attorney, either issuing, or threatening, a cease and desist notice.

For me, that was it. Free speech was the norm over here, and over at gameuseduniverse, not so much. I stopped going over there.

On April 23 of this year, I received an email from Chris Cavalier, which begins: "I hope this email finds you doing well. Recently, there were a few people who tried to reach me through the Game Used Universe site. As the site's founder, I am sure it seemed logical to try to reach me through the GUU. Unfortunately, my account there has been banned by the site's new owner and I am no longer able to post there or respond to anyone trying to message me through the site."

Chris went on to provide his email address at Heritage, where he is now a Consignment Director. I wish him the best and consider him to be one of the many "good guys" who used to be at that site. Out of curiosity, I checked out GUU (had problems logging in as I'd forgotten my password.) It looks like a ghost town compared to what it used to be.

So........ When I see people jumping all over Leon because he didn't instantly ban one of his advertisers over this recently breaking scandal, and then when I see people who spend quite a lot of time enjoying this site (for free) imply Leon has no "cojones" and that he can be "bought," I think it is unfair to the extreme.

Running this website costs money, and maintaining civility among all of us must be rather challenging at times. I agree with a previous poster that Leon manages this site, and keeps us all in line, in a very calm and fair way. For example, the PWCC ad issue is now resolved, and as it turns out, Leon't patient approach, to let things play out, was better than some sort of knee-jerk reaction some here advocated.

What I don't want is for the aggravation Leon has to put up with to become so great that he starts looking for his own "Goldin Parachute." Imagine if he sold this site to another auction house, or even PSA (or for that matter, PWCC.) New rules might be instituted, the current moderators would quit as they wouldn't be able to stomach those new rules, and I would have to find another hobby website, rather than watch this site degenerate the way of GUU.

Bottom line is this: I am comfortable here. If at some point I become uncomfortable, I will simply leave. But I will not try to tell Leon how to run his site, and I certainly will not insult him. If you interpret that as me having no principles, so be it.

What you are saying is you don't care who anyone deals with. You are saying it's their choice. And although true, that gives you zero credibility in judging other's character and principles, like you did with the OP. You trashed him for having principles while you ignore Leon's apparent indifference when it comes to principles. So why would anyone take you seriously. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Principles > doing whatever it takes for a buck. You can spin it all you want, but anyone actually paying attention to your words sees you have no credibility.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

What you are saying is you don't care who anyone deals with. You are saying it's their choice. And although true, that gives you zero credibility in judging other's character and principles, like you did with the OP. You trashed him for having principles while you ignore Leon's apparent indifference when it comes to principles. So why would anyone take you seriously. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Principles > doing whatever it takes for a buck. You can spin it all you want, but anyone actually paying attention to your words sees you have no credibility.

I read Mark as saying as long as I get to enjoy the forum for free, I don't care where the revenue comes from. That's fine, he's entitled to feel that way, but don't be calling ME disingenuous.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I read Mark as saying as long as I get to enjoy the forum for free, I don't care where the revenue comes from. That's fine, he's entitled to feel that way, but don't be calling ME disingenuous.

But that's not ALL he's saying. He's trashing people for saying they don't like that the ads are here. That's a HUGE difference. If he just said what you said he said, I would have just agreed and moved on. But he took it further and trashed someone for having principles? That's completely absurd. What he's really saying is Leon can do what he wants and everyone should support him and everything he does because the site is free to use, and if you don't your'e a jerk. Really?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

But that's not ALL he's saying. He's trashing people for saying they don't like that the ads are here. That's a HUGE difference. If he just said what you said he said, I would have just agreed and moved on. But he took it further and trashed someone for having principles? That's completely absurd. What he's really saying is Leon can do what he wants and everyone should support him and everything he does because the site is free to use, and if you don't your'e a jerk. Really?

Yes, I am with you 100 percent on this, that's what I was trying to say not so clearly apparently by adding, don't be calling ME disingenuous for objecting. That's where he crossed the line.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, I am with you 100 percent on this, that's what I was trying to say not so clearly apparently by adding, don't be calling ME disingenuous for objecting. That's where he crossed the line.

Okay, I get it now.

[Goudey77]

The mob mentality and social media harassment is a big cultural problem.
I have recently been attacked via my Instagram page for displaying PSA cards. I get it in the form of comments and personal direct messages.
It wouldnt surprise me if this behavior keeps up we'll soon see physical altercations at card shows in the near future.
If you want to be an internet tough guy then I welcome you to bring that same voice in the real world. Just give me one guy to say something...

[CobbSpikedMe]

Honestly it's been so long since I registered here I don't remember what info I needed to provide to do so. But I can't imagine I had to give any sensitive info like SSN or credit card info. So what's so scary about registering with you're real name? I don't know, I guess I don't get it.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I completely disagree. You are making it about money when it's an issue of morals and integrity. Leon, and anyone else, is certainly free to do whatever, but that doesn't excuse the behavior of the company they keep. If taking money from crooks is admirable or acceptable to you, then so be it. But you have no credibility when it comes to judging others based on principles, as you apparently have none.

Honestly, this whole thing is disingenuous. If you truly felt that PWCC advertising on this forum meant this forum was "associated" with PWCC, you would leave. Anyone who is a member of a PWCC-sponsored forum is associated with PWCC, right? Or is it just people who take their money? If so, this isn't about morals or principles, this is about money.

So long as Leon isn't stifling critical conversation of sponsors (which he CLEARLY isn't), there is no "issue of morals and integrity." What's the problem?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Honestly, this whole thing is disingenuous. If you truly felt that PWCC advertising on this forum meant this forum was "associated" with PWCC, you would leave. Anyone who is a member of a PWCC-sponsored forum is associated with PWCC, right? Or is it just people who take their money? If so, this isn't about morals or principles, this is about money.

So long as Leon isn't stifling critical conversation of sponsors (which he CLEARLY isn't), there is no "issue of morals and integrity." What's the problem?

I'm still here, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with the site accepting ad money from crooks. I have no business transactions with Leon, but if I did, I would end them based on the company he keeps. But I don't. This is just a message board to me. But if someone else feels strongly enough to leave, I'm certainly not going to attack THEM for having principles. That's moronic. You guys keep pretending Leon is the only one on the site who can't be held to any type of standards whatsoever because he owns/runs the site. I find that odd. Bunch of plebs. lol

[calvindog]

Is REA gone too?

[Leon]

Principles? Honesty?
Can you answer why this is your registration information?



From: Bradd Scharping [mailto:braddavery@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:16 PM
To: Leon Luckey
Subject: Re: contact info for Net54

sportscardtheory

Bradd Scharping

716-xxx-xxxxx

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I'm still here, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with the site accepting ad money from crooks. I have no business transactions with Leon, but if I did, I would end them based on the company he keeps. But I don't. This is just a message board to me. But if someone else feels strongly enough to leave, I'm certainly not going to attack THEM for having principles. That's moronic. You guys keep pretending Leon is the only one on the site who can't be held to any type of standards whatsoever because he owns/runs the site. I find that odd. Bunch of plebs. lol

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Leon

Principles? Honesty?
Can you answer why this is your registration information?



From: Bradd Scharping [mailto:braddavery@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:16 PM
To: Leon Luckey
Subject: Re: contact info for Net54

sportscardtheory

Bradd Scharping

716-xxx-xxxxx

Because when I first signed up, I signed up under a fake name thinking it didn't matter. I had used that name and email for years to sign in to message boards and such, to be anonymous. And then you asked me for my real name in like 2011. Funny how you always bring up people's identity as some sort of cryptic threat when you don't like what they have to say. I mean, we all know your name too you know.

[Leon]

LMAO, I just don't want fraudsters, just as you did in your registration, on our board. You are quite the hypocrite. There is no cryptic threat here, I am just calling a spade a spade. Everyone can see what you did for themselves. Fraudster....
And I don't remember that conversation 8? years ago so will consider that a lie too, just like your registration. BTW., please PM me with your new registration info. It will be verified as you apparently can't be trusted to be honest.

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Because when I first signed up, I signed up under a fake name thinking it didn't matter. I had used that name and email for years to sign in to message boards and such, to be anonymous. And then you asked me for my real name in like 2011. Funny how you always use people's identity as some sort of cryptic threat when you don't like what they have to say.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Leon

LMAO, I just don't want fraudsters, just as you did in your registration, on our board. You are quite the hypocrite. There is no cryptic threat here, I am just calling a spade a spade. Everyone can see what you did for themselves. Fraudster....

What?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I'm still here, but that doesn't mean I'm cool with the site accepting ad money from crooks. I have no business transactions with Leon, but if I did, I would end them based on the company he keeps. But I don't. This is just a message board to me. But if someone else feels strongly enough to leave, I'm certainly not going to attack THEM for having principles. That's moronic. You guys keep pretending Leon is the only one on the site who can't be held to any type of standards whatsoever because he owns/runs the site. I find that odd. Bunch of plebs. lol

LOL, no one is pretending anything. It is simple, attack Leon or call him out for something and you get banned. Do you not get that? Use emails like every one else.

[Leon]

So if that were the case you and several others would be banned and you aren't. You really can't comprehend or read, can you?

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, no one is pretending anything. It is simple, attack Leon or call him out for something and you get banned. Do you not get that? Use emails like every one else.