PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

Peter_Spaeth · #1 06-05-2019, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

My understanding is that over the years many people have been dissatisfied with the outcome of their requests for guarantee reviews.

CuriousGeorge · #2 06-05-2019, 10:43 AM

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent�s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

70ToppsFanatic · #3 06-05-2019, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent�s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven�t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn�t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Peter_Spaeth · #4 06-05-2019, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Failure to act in good faith with respect to the guarantee is one legal possibility that comes to mind, assuming the facts are there. I would not be surprised at all if many people come forward in this regard. I can think of others as well but don't want to shoot from the hip just yet.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 06-05-2019, 11:11 AM

The Jack Nicholson line, You can't handle the truth, comes to mind in reflecting whether people REALLY want to know.

CuriousGeorge · #6 06-05-2019, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven�t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn�t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

PSA is getting paid to grade cards and is failing miserably to catch these issues. They have a guarantee that needs to be upheld. eBay is just the facilitator of the transactions and I suspect that if anyone accused would have their auctions shut down there would be a lot less for sale there. In time I imagine they will deal with PWCC depending on where this goes.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-05-2019, 11:26 AM

I continue to be puzzed by Sloan's (probably from JO really) statement that only if the seller is unknown should someone send in cards for review.

One, it seems inconsistent with the plain terms of the guarantee.
Two, how often is the seller "unknown"?

70ToppsFanatic · #8 06-05-2019, 11:32 AM

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They�ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let�s not get in front of our headlights.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 06-05-2019, 11:36 AM

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

Fuddjcal · #10 06-05-2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

CuriousGeorge · #11 06-05-2019, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it�s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

SMPEP · #12 06-05-2019, 12:44 PM

I see the court room now ...

Card Collector: PSA - Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

Judge: You don't have to answer that question!

PSA: I'll answer the question. You want answers?

Card Collector: I think I'm entitled to them.

PSA: You want answers?!

Card Collector: I want the truth!

PSA: You can't handle the truth!

Son, we live in a world that has baseball cards, and those cards have to be graded by men with plastic cases. Who's gonna do it? You, SGC? You, BGS? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for card collectors, and you curse PSA. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that card investor's financial loses, while substantial, probably were lessened; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves money.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me grading that baseball card -- you need me grading that baseball card.

We use words like "alteration," "conservation," and "authenticity." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent grading baseball cards. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading services that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a loupe and grade your own cards. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!

Card Collector: Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

PSA: I did the job--

Card Collector: -- Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

PSA: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!

perezfan · #13 06-05-2019, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They�ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let�s not get in front of our headlights.

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.

70ToppsFanatic · #14 06-05-2019, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.

Selectively quoting me does not make your mob mentality valid.

�3/1000ths of a percent SO FAR!�

�I too believe there is more to be uncovered...�

This is still America people. Remember innocent until proven guilty?

From what has been discovered it appears that PWCC was somehow involved in some unethical and possibly illegal things with some know scams artists. It also appears that they managed to slip some things through PSA and other TPGs.

And here you are, part of a mob that is spouting off all sorts of wild ideas about PSA being complicit in this, PSA is going to weasel out of its guarantee, and other generally unflattering conspiracy theories without any real evidence to substantiate it.

PSA is doing what just about any other publicly traded corporation does when an apparent primary product/service failure has occurred; trying to weed out what of that which has come out is indeed true and what is not, trying to identify what risks exist for the company as a result of it, trying to identify other parties that could potentially be held accountable, trying to minimize the damages to the company, trying to reassure customers, etc.

It may ultimately be proven that there are 100,000 tainted items, but right now there isn�t any evidence to back that up. There is evidence that has been developed that suggests about 1,000 so far. Are 1000 too many? Yes, but it�s far from the epidemic level that the mob is currently panicking about.

For someone who claims to be so concerned about integrity you certainly don�t seem to be very worried about the integrity and fairness of passing judgment on people like myself, and PSA for that matter, without proper basis in fact.

egbeachley · #15 06-05-2019, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They�ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let�s not get in front of our headlights.

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it�s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 06-05-2019, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it’s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

I think he's playing the spin game of limiting it to ones with actual conclusive before and after photos. Whatever.

swarmee · #17 06-05-2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Did you make that number up? Nobody is saying it�s possibly 1,000 cards. There were 950 cards in just 1 submission.

Well, that was the sum of like 6 submissions. But there have been another 1000 just from Moser in the recent few years. The fact that Joe Orlando was quoted as knowing Moser was submitting bad cards 15 years ago and they did not ban his account is very telling.

You need to send a check or credit card in order to pay for the items, and who would vouch for Moser time and time again to cover his items or pay for his services? (Well Brent, but who else?)

They need to release all of his submitted cards, decertify them so that the website tells them to return them for a review under the grade guarantee, and then actually do their job a second time. If they have to crack the card to see the edges, no problem. They have the slabbing machines. No reason they shouldn't see the edges clearly and not have to worry about glare to detect reglossing/recoloring.

They need to post on the front page of the website their lukewarm initial answer to make their owners more aware of the issue. I did get an email response from Mr. Sloan today.

Fuddjcal · #18 06-05-2019, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

Brent Mastro says "He is working with PSA" when PSA should be suing the S*** out of him and d-listing the schmuck. AND e-bay sells 1000's of dollars in forgeries and fakes everyday 365 days a year. Do you think they care? Think again.

NEW FLASH: They don't and they will protect their little Brenty just like PSA is.

Peter_Spaeth · #19 06-05-2019, 11:31 AM

Meanwhile, by changing his ID, Gary appears to be showing his intent to keep right on keeping on.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #20 06-05-2019, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven�t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn�t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

You don't necessarily have to be "going after" PSA for some bureau or other to request (demand) records to aid in an investigation.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 06-05-2019, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent�s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.

I hope so, the efforts on BO to out cards have been noble but at best they can scratch the recent surface. I am a bit skeptical about the prospects of obtaining this relief from the courts but it would be a game-changer.

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