PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

And during the period of the last four recessions they were each wrong twice.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

I am unsure how much money he is making, that is his business, but I know he wouldn't continue to do it if it wasn't at least a bit lucrative.

[Goudey77]

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He means the economist predicted 6 but there were only 4.

Ah, gotcha. Never heard that before.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

They're not the ones who trimmed it? What kind of excuse is that? They could use that excuse for all wrong doing. "We weren't the ones who re-colored it." "We weren't the ones who rebuilt the corners" "We weren't the ones that chemically cleaned it." How lame! Then what does their guarantee cover?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am sure the guarantee does not require the owner to exhaust other remedies first. It's an odd statement by Sloan in that regard.

[benjulmag]

It wouldn't surprise me if PSA is just warming up with defenses they will use to try to avoid having to make good on the guarantee. Mounting publicity about the scandal along with new revelations about altered cards seem to be daily occurrences. Guarantee claims likely will continue to mount. Figuring out how to deal with them may turn into an existential issue for PSA.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Through all this the PWCC banner ad remains up.

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers.

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

[Bigdaddy]

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

Wait, what? There are principles involved? Who? Where? What are they?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

My position is equally principled. You see my point and I see yours, and we will have to agree to disagree.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside, Gary changed his ebay ID and was instantly outed.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=553

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Exactly. I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by griffon512

"[PSA] will not let isolated acts from a few dishonest actors deter consumer confidence in our brand."

Ummm...aren't you the ones people are largely relying on and paying to deter the dishonest actors? Do that and maybe people will have confidence in the brand. Can't make this stuff up.

This should be our response letter back to Sloan...

Dear PSA:

Isn't your entire business model predicated upon identifying and rejecting material from "dishonest actors"?

Isn't the sole reason you exist to protect collectors from these "few dishonest actors"?

Without the "dishonest actors", you wouldn't even have a business to run.

So why don't you stop playing "the victim", and admit to your long list of failures. Address the damned issue head-on!

[Brian Van Horn]

Peter,

Thank you for the subtle and understated images. I was thinking about the T206 Wagner when I saw your images and it all just drove home the point.

[dwinters]

Shouldn’t this type of statement be released by the ceo through an official pr?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

They're not the ones who trimmed it? What kind of excuse is that? They could use that excuse for all wrong doing. "We weren't the ones who re-colored it." "We weren't the ones who rebuilt the corners" "We weren't the ones that chemically cleaned it." How lame! Then what does their guarantee cover?

If this guy was burned in the WIWAG scandal, which I had to look up because I've only been back into cards/grading for five years, it makes some sense.

WIWAG was accused of busting the holders, swapping out cards with lower grade ones, and resealing. So PSA according to the terms of their current Grade Guarantee would not be liable because the holders have been cracked. Not sure if that was the same-worded guarantee from 15 years ago or not, or if they added that the holders had to be undamaged.

Should PSA really be on the hook for the Mexico guy and the craigslist guys who are cracking/resealing cases? Shouldn't the customer inspect the case to make sure it hasn't been tampered with? I understand it.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by swarmee

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Thread is still up, but got locked after a few posts. Explanation from the moderator:

AFLfan Posts: 236 mod June 4, 2019 7:40PM
I am going to lock this thread down now, not because the OP did not care for Steve Sloan's statement today, but because of the tone.

I run a youth lacrosse league and on occasion have to intervene when parents are unhappy with coaches for one reason or another. This typically happens immediately after a game. My advice to the parent is always to go home, think about the situation for 24 hours, and then come back and let's discuss things. Take some time to consider different perspectives and the fact that the coach may be making decisions based upon information that the parent does not have, though at the moment the parent feels that they understand the situation fully.

Same situation here. I'm not telling anyone that they are wrong, or need to stifle their thoughts, but rather tossing the figurative ball back and saying to try again. Give it another shot, but in a different tone and perhaps after trying to view the situation from multiple points of view.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector

Hmmm. Comparing rightfully angry collectors who are being fed a line of manure to rowdy parents at a kid's sports match... not how I would have done it.

[swarmee]

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-...en-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:

Our Guarantee
Beckett Grading Services will provide collectors with the finest, most thorough, consistent and accurate grading efforts available in the industry. Disputed grades on cards are limited to typographical errors on the label (i.e., the wrong set name). We guarantee our turn around time. Turn Around Time, this is the time in which the cards are in the possession of Beckett Grading Services (time in transit, weekends and holidays are excluded) and begin the day after your order is received. Failure to meet our deadlines will result in a customer refund.

Beckett shall not be deemed to be in default of or to have breached any provision of this guarantee as a result of any delay, failure in performance or interruption of the Services, resulting directly or indirectly from acts of God, acts of civil or military authority, civil disturbance, war, fire, floods, epidemics, quarantine restrictions, strikes, freight embargoes, transportation contingencies, shortages of facilities, fuel, energy, labor or materials, or laws, regulations, acts or order of any government agency or official thereof, other catastrophes, delays of subcontractors or suppliers arising from unforeseeable causes beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of either the Contractor or the subcontractors or suppliers, or any other circumstances beyond Provider's reasonable control. In the event of any such delay or failure, the parties shall defer performance of the Services to a date and time mutually agreeable.

So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

[barrysloate]

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

[swarmee]

Well, hey, if PSA is doing on-site grading at the Long Beach Expo starting tomorrow, those of you that have altered cards from PWCC/Moser can form a return/refund line.
https://www.psacard.com/Resources/Sh...=lbe_june_2019

When there's a run on the bank, you want to be first in line, right?

[swarmee]

On the BGS side, a class-action lawsuit may be the only recourse collectors owning slabbed cards has, unless they get their cards returned to the seller within the window.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If this guy was burned in the WIWAG scandal, which I had to look up because I've only been back into cards/grading for five years, it makes some sense.

WIWAG was accused of busting the holders, swapping out cards with lower grade ones, and resealing. So PSA according to the terms of their current Grade Guarantee would not be liable because the holders have been cracked. Not sure if that was the same-worded guarantee from 15 years ago or not, or if they added that the holders had to be undamaged.

Should PSA really be on the hook for the Mexico guy and the craigslist guys who are cracking/resealing cases? Shouldn't the customer inspect the case to make sure it hasn't been tampered with? I understand it.

I don't disagree that PSA should not be on the hook for an altered card inserted in a cracked/resealed case. PSA's statement however, as I read it, doesn't refer to that situation when it says to first go back to the seller. I wonder if they are raising the privity argument, or at least trying to keep that defense viable should the matter become the subject of litigation.

As has been discussed in previous threads, their warranty would seem to be of the type to run with the card, and therefore not to require the person invoking it to be the person who originally submitted it for grading. I would not be surprised if PSA does try to raise the privity issue if they perceive guarantee claims to be an existential issue. And probably too we can count on statute of limitation defenses to be thrown in as well.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

Bird watching is fascinating.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by irv

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards. Submitted if oc or mc PSA cards could have an accurate grade when submitting to sgc. Since the new regime took over, they have taken it into account , and therefore wont honor the old grades. Nobody seems up in arms about this, maybe PSA should just sell the co and not honor any old grades.

If sgc is tougher, wouldn't people be more willing to buy them, cross to PSA, then sell them? Why would PWCC and co only buy PSA cards and try to restore them, Instead of sgc cards which were "already graded stricter"

This is not the case, maybe they have graded less altered cards, but certainly not tougher on the whole!

Sorry for the rant, but a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards.

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

Slow week.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Slow week.

Slow and weak

[gzman]

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...1955-aa-orouke

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by gzman

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...1955-aa-orouke

That's exactly the point! Thank you for finding this. The notion that this was an "isolated" issue is insulting. Moser's cards are everywhere by now, and we all have them in our collections. PSA can't put the genie back in the bottle. Time for a better mousetrap.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Leon]

For the moment it is staying up. This board, nor I, endorse fraud. No one is forcing anyone to post or be here. Last I checked you can leave if you don't like it. This is a very fluid situation and their banner might come down, might not. I will make that decision when the time is right. Today, tomorrow or never.

I am bothered by a lot of things, like you not having your name next to your posts when you know darn well know it should be. Just like Jay Miller (Old Judge) who commented above, his name needs to be out here too. I have had discussions about these same violations with both of you more than once. Thanks

Originally Posted by T206Collector

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

I agree, and was shocked when I heard a PSA 7mc, would now be an sgc 30!

So why did they change their standards, and wont honor the old grades? Just because someone bought them out, and they dont want the old baggage?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by gzman

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...1955-aa-orouke

Well, probably many thousands by now....

[swarmee]

Love the quote by shouldabeen10:

It would take a small "task force" to actually (legally) prove the things that seem fairly obvious to us.

And if someone can testify that Joe Orlando said it's better let them keep submitting than play whack-a-mole with "bad actors," there is probably some additional liability in that comment.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-...en-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:


So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

That article is for subscribers only. $2 for 2 weeks! That's more than any newspaper I've seen.
Nope, not doing that.

[steve B]

Here that statement is as I read it

Hey, we got caught. And that's a problem. But it's happened before, and we have a solution!
Send any of the outed cards back to the sellers, so they can crack and resubmit. That way the cards get new holders with a nice new serial number and this whole problem can go away.

Try our new "we're really good at spotting fraud mango" flavor kool aid coming out right now!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

I agree that Leon can do what ever he wants on his site, not that I have a say as it is Leon's site.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Bird watching is fascinating.

LOL, I'm going to start collecting Birds...

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

My understanding is that over the years many people have been dissatisfied with the outcome of their requests for guarantee reviews.

[CuriousGeorge]

There are going to be lawsuits. Lawsuits that will request lists of all cards submitted on behalf of certain people and entities. PSA will fight tooth and nail not to turn over those lists. Depending on Brent’s circumstances he may choose to voluntarily or will be forced to in lawsuits. Eventually the courts will decide whether they will be released and who needs to release them. According to lawyers I have spoken with it is very likely the lists will come out.