PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Do you really believe there are no doctored cards in SGC holders?

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

[JeremyW]

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

Since there's almost no profit incentive in sending cards to SGC (compared to PSA and BGS), SGC will be largely unscathed from this scandal.

They were the smartest people by shuttering the auto authentication arm, either by chance or by intention.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jay maybe so, it's a hard hypothetical to test.

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

It would be fun to watch SGC cards start to command higher prices than PSA, but that won't happen any time soon. It is possible though.

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Or maybe old-style PSA flips will become more in vogue, since those were submitted over 10 years ago before this was going on?

Who says it wasn't?

[Goudey77]

Interesting point brought up. Will this be a loophole for PSA’s guarantee?

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Of course it is true. I think all TPGs are equally competent (or incompetent). In a way, PSA is a victim of their own success. If SGC cards were trading at a premium in the market I’m sure the majority of the doctored cards would have been submitted to and graded by them.

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

You're probably right, but I've always given SGC more credit for the 19th Century cards.

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Who is better, the economist who predicted two of the last four recessions or the economist who predicted six of the last four recessions?

The latter. More accuracy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The latter. More accuracy.

I think that's right. 2/3 as opposed to 1/2

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

I wonder if SGC was at the top of the grading mountain would they be in the same @#$%storm that PSA is in?

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

But would they have caved into the corruption of passing obviously corrupted cards along to their registry people?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

DING DING DING we have a winner. Of course the doctors are going through PSA and to a lesser degree Beckett (for modern). That's where top dollar is. SGC's position saved them in this case.

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

I am unsure how much money he is making, that is his business, but I know he wouldn't continue to do it if it wasn't at least a bit lucrative.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by irv

I also think, because SGC grades tougher, that people use PSA knowing they are likely to get a higher grade.

I also remember reading of at least one guy on here who is/was purchasing SGC graded cards, busting them out, sending them to PSA and receiving higher grades.

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards. Submitted if oc or mc PSA cards could have an accurate grade when submitting to sgc. Since the new regime took over, they have taken it into account , and therefore wont honor the old grades. Nobody seems up in arms about this, maybe PSA should just sell the co and not honor any old grades.

If sgc is tougher, wouldn't people be more willing to buy them, cross to PSA, then sell them? Why would PWCC and co only buy PSA cards and try to restore them, Instead of sgc cards which were "already graded stricter"

This is not the case, maybe they have graded less altered cards, but certainly not tougher on the whole!

Sorry for the rant, but a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

This debate again? Sgc did NOT take centering into account when they began grading cards.

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

I agree, and was shocked when I heard a PSA 7mc, would now be an sgc 30!

So why did they change their standards, and wont honor the old grades? Just because someone bought them out, and they dont want the old baggage?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

a few people (not you Irv) must literally have no job, or have a slow week at the office. I cant read any threads here or blow without seeing 5 posts every hour by the same people.

Slow week.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That's because, unlike SGC collectors, PSA collectors need someone to tell them their card is OC or MC. They're rely on the flip to tell them that because they can't think for themselves. SGC collectors don't need that. They can look for themselves and judge the centering of the card.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Slow week.

Slow and weak

[gzman]

This posted on CLCT website 15 years ago...How many alterations have been done, and, sold, since then?
https://forums.collectors.com/discus...1955-aa-orouke

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Absolutely not. But SGC is currently not in the cross-hairs.

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Guess all those bad t206 autos just got brushed under the carpet.

Nothing to help people forget about a scandal like a BIGGER scandal!!

is well-versed in combating fraud

Perhaps it was a typo - combating-committing?

[swarmee]

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Those guys should read more threads and see how involved PSA is in this scandal.

The other thing I'm not thrilled with is that this is posted on only one of their message boards, and you have to click and scroll around on the site to even find it. Despite how weak it is, it needs to be plastered on the FRONT PAGE of their website in that center slot, so that everyone who visits the site can read it.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by swarmee

This guy made a nice post over at the PSA message board. Looks like some of their guys are reading this board, and think we're being too harsh.

Thread is still up, but got locked after a few posts. Explanation from the moderator:

AFLfan Posts: 236 mod June 4, 2019 7:40PM
I am going to lock this thread down now, not because the OP did not care for Steve Sloan's statement today, but because of the tone.

I run a youth lacrosse league and on occasion have to intervene when parents are unhappy with coaches for one reason or another. This typically happens immediately after a game. My advice to the parent is always to go home, think about the situation for 24 hours, and then come back and let's discuss things. Take some time to consider different perspectives and the fact that the coach may be making decisions based upon information that the parent does not have, though at the moment the parent feels that they understand the situation fully.

Same situation here. I'm not telling anyone that they are wrong, or need to stifle their thoughts, but rather tossing the figurative ball back and saying to try again. Give it another shot, but in a different tone and perhaps after trying to view the situation from multiple points of view.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector

Hmmm. Comparing rightfully angry collectors who are being fed a line of manure to rowdy parents at a kid's sports match... not how I would have done it.

[swarmee]

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-...en-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:

Our Guarantee
Beckett Grading Services will provide collectors with the finest, most thorough, consistent and accurate grading efforts available in the industry. Disputed grades on cards are limited to typographical errors on the label (i.e., the wrong set name). We guarantee our turn around time. Turn Around Time, this is the time in which the cards are in the possession of Beckett Grading Services (time in transit, weekends and holidays are excluded) and begin the day after your order is received. Failure to meet our deadlines will result in a customer refund.

Beckett shall not be deemed to be in default of or to have breached any provision of this guarantee as a result of any delay, failure in performance or interruption of the Services, resulting directly or indirectly from acts of God, acts of civil or military authority, civil disturbance, war, fire, floods, epidemics, quarantine restrictions, strikes, freight embargoes, transportation contingencies, shortages of facilities, fuel, energy, labor or materials, or laws, regulations, acts or order of any government agency or official thereof, other catastrophes, delays of subcontractors or suppliers arising from unforeseeable causes beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of either the Contractor or the subcontractors or suppliers, or any other circumstances beyond Provider's reasonable control. In the event of any such delay or failure, the parties shall defer performance of the Services to a date and time mutually agreeable.

So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

[barrysloate]

I think it's time to find a new hobby. Maybe knitting, or butterfly watching, can fill the void.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Still no public statement from Beckett. They have it even more widespread than PSA does.

They do have this nice article on their website. Maybe PSA should read it?
https://www.beckett.com/news/how-to-...en-re-colored/

But then they also have this: "The Reputation of the Beckett Name- BGS operates with the same honesty, integrity and excellent hobby knowledge you have come to expect from Beckett. Reliability and consistency are the hallmarks of Beckett Grading Services." (No mention of accuracy? Edit: I see it in their service time guarantee below)

And their guarantee is quite a bit different:


So maybe they don't need to make a statement because all the trimming that got by them for years by more "bad actors" than PSA had exposed aren't covered under any warranty or liability. Unless they also happened to be mechanical errors for stuff like "wrong set."

It's up to the Beckett collectors/buyers to stop paying ridiculous multiples of raw card values for BGS 10s and 10 Black Labels. Let's see if the modern guys really care.

People wondering all these years why PSA charges so much and Beckett charges so little to grade $100,000 and up cards can read those guarantees and see what the extra money should be going towards.

That article is for subscribers only. $2 for 2 weeks! That's more than any newspaper I've seen.
Nope, not doing that.

[T206Collector]

The scariest thing about the PSA statement is how much effort they put into trying to convince us that the virus is contained and will be eradicated — without any explanation as to what the cure is — by suggesting that it’s an “isolated act” and not an absolute plague on the hobby. Even Exxon had better statements after the Valdez oil spill.

Congratulations for rejecting “thousands of altered and counterfeit cards . . . each year.” If you reject thousands of altered cards and you encapsulate thousands of altered cards you’re doing about as well as a coin flip.

What exactly is “[y]our on-going investments in grading and holder technology”?
The “lighthouse logo” now acts more like a traditional lighthouse, alerting oncoming collectors to rocky shores beneath the glow. Never mind that if you lock a trimmed card in Fort Knox, all you’ve managed to do is protect a trimmed card. The seatbelt is somewhat less helpful after the crash.

“[I]solated acts from a few dishonest actors”? The bubonic plague requires humans to be isolated so that the disease doesn’t spread. These acts were the opposite — the were intentionally socialized, designed to spread altered cards into all of our collections. You can isolate as many actors as you want today, but the damage already done has extremely far-reaching, and invasive effects. These cards are in all of our collections, and they stain the good ones with an unwashable air of doubt and uncertainty.

“Rest assured that PSA will not let the actions of a few have any lingering impact on the hobby or the PSA brand.” You’ll forgive me if I’m not feeling all that reassured by this statement. How are you going to clean up the spill?