Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[pgconboy]

What I am especially curious about is if PWCC will be shown to have been complicit in forging autographs that were then slabbed by PSA.

If so, that would cripple part of my collection (the instagram link in my sig for anyone curious).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pgconboy

What I am especially curious about is if PWCC will be shown to have been complicit in forging autographs that were then slabbed by PSA.

If so, that would cripple part of my collection (the instagram link in my sig for anyone curious).

I have never heard anything at all in that regard.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I've never heard they forged, but they've sold bogus autographs with goofball certs including a Michael Jordan Jersey.

[dwinters]

Anyone want to throw out some guesses on the potential fraud involved here? $100m, $200m, $500m, etc?

Will the folks with $10s or $100s of thousands of dollars involved seek restitution?

I seem to recall some 1950s cards selling for neary a half million.

How deep does this go? Seems like it will be 100x larger than the auto scandal.

[pgconboy]

It is tough to even guess but if reimbursements start going through I would probably bet against PSA having enough money to cover the full extent of treachery.

[Bigdaddy]

So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified? Do they get the Scarlet Letter - 'A' for Altered - stamped on them? Do they continue to reside in their current holders? I would assume that if (and I don't see this happening anytime soon) PSA buys back the cards, then would they regrade them with an 'Altered' designation on the flip. And sell them back into the market?

If so, what would keep someone from breaking one out and resubmitting? Maybe ruffing up the edges a bit and looking for a numerical grade?

I believe Operation Bullpen items got stamped and donated to kids (at least the bats and balls). I assume the paper items were destroyed.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified?

I asked that as one of about 100 questions I submitted for PWCC to answer in the Blowout thread in the Member Feedback section. I presume PSA will hold onto them currently in case the FBI comes knocking.

[swarmee]

Too early to tell. And are you just talking Moser/PSA or all of the scammers, PWCC, BGS, and PSA?
The modern stuff is crazier than the vintage.

Look at the 1993 SP Jeter RC. I sold the PSA 8 I won from a PSA set registry contest a week or two ago for $725. PWCC sold one of the 22 PSA 10 copies for $99K recently. When their "server glitch" happened and they stored copies of their cards submitted by known scammers like Kevin Burge to another server, the $99K Jeter disappeared.

Was it trimmed/altered? Hard to prove. May be entirely circumstantial that modern baseball's version of 1952 Topps #311 Mantle happened to also be submitted by the guy that submitted copious amounts of trimmed cards. I think the owner should fly to PSA and have them check it again. PSA regularly spits that card back to its owners in a cardsaver for MINSIZREQ or EVIDTRIM. If you don't bring them the before and after picture (and how could you?), they know they owe you $100K if it's trimmed. And they know it will be a lead news story that they refunded someone $100K for incompetence.

Read the SSI Guy thread and the BuyNiceCards threads over on Blowout. This thing has been so pervasive with both companies either looking cross-eyed, the other way, or being paid to turn around, that I personally can't see PSA or BGS make it out of this scandal intact. But as they say, "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American customer."

Now if the PSA side of the scandal doesn't break them entirely or sic the Feds on them from their lack of guarantee reserve, does it make the guys with the PSA 8-10 T206 sets re-evaluate their trust in the product they already own?

I doubt it, but that could be another stress point.

But a big question, and one I've mentioned a couple of different places, is that they CHARGE UP TO $5,000 TO GRADE A SINGLE CARD. And if you can't trust them to grade a $500 card and not see that it's trimmed/color added/pinhole fixed/reglossed, who is going to pay them $5K to do the same "job"?

[CobbSpikedMe]

PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.

[swarmee]

https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499

The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.

oh you're not out of line. In fact I think youve hit the bullseye. This is exactly what I feel has been happening way before this trimming and flipping PWCC scam has been proven. They are 50% there, IMHO. Maybe Brent Mastro will sing like a canary? I can't see that priss wanting to go to jail. He would not do well there. They would wipe that s*** eating grin right off his face in a hurry.