PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He SAYS he does, over a certain dollar value, personally, to assign stickers. It's posted several places but I've lost track of what's where. Anyhow 1000s of cards over 15 years (for much of which he was a one man operation), yeah he knows the score. And he has admitted it, to me and others.

I didn't know he says that. If so, fair enough.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I didn't know he says that. If so, fair enough.

This is from an email from Betsy copied on BO but they have posted it themselves too.

"I can assure you that this process is completely unbiased; when Brent does his review he does so for the entire auction after the cards have been sorted by sport, year, and issue."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

and many with the added comfort of a PWCC high-end or exceptional sticker. Maybe that was the error - they shouldn't have the sticker...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

and many with the added comfort of a PWCC high-end or exceptional sticker. Maybe that was the error - they shouldn't have the sticker...

My understanding is they were from the outed subs.

[sportscardtheory]

I think if PWCC turns on Moser in an effort to deflect FBI attention from themselves, this could get very interesting. Especially if he can in turn, disclose proof that they were complicit.

I also think some here's questioning of the legality of committing fraud is pretty suspect. Using some of the mental gymnastics I've seen in this thread, you can dismantle any case of fraud under the guise of righteous intent, ie claiming someone wanted to conserve the cards doesn't absolve them of possible fraud charges. You don't get a free pass to commit fraud simply by stating you meant well.

[luciobar1980]

Yup, I came here to post this as well. I had my eye on this auction:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

Good that they did this, I was bidding on the Red Cobb.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

right...another 1000 this auction and they'll be home free.

[Leon]

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Thank you Peter. I’d appreciate if you keep posting links to cards removed from the auction and other outed cards on other forums - I am not a member of any other forums and I am a tech idiot, so I get all my news here and appreciate the links.

Meanwhile, the jacked T206 Jennings one hand AB 460, psa 6 is still live, which means they have not taken out all the bad eggs; I suspect they have removed a mere fraction so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Sounds like a good business, Leon's Card Removal Service.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sounds like a good business, Leon's Card Removal Service.

Leon, can you see if you can get all the remaining cards for this auction pulled? I bet there are 100's still in there? He seems to like you best.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Leon

Card is gone, disregard my pm

Yes it is. Thank you, and I think another fellow board member helped as well. I am glad. One less bad one out there. I have no skin in that game (not my card and never was), but I strongly believe it used to sit in a psa 4 case and had brown crap under the right arm.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Yes it is. Thank you, and I think another fellow board member helped as well. I am glad. One less bad one out there. I have no skin in that game (not my card and never was), but I strongly believe it used to sit in a psa 4 case and had brown crap under the right arm.

And I agree with Leon, many - in fact, most - of the cards in pwcc’s auction are probably 100% fine. Bid accordingly or boycott altogether, but I do fear collateral damage that comes from this.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, after promising there were no Moser cards in the current auction, they have taken down quite a few more. I suppose it could be unrelated.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777740858?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352682160064?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401778998920?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680563526?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680532262?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352680537796?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777760222?nordt=true
https://www.ebay.com/itm/401777757855?nordt=true

wow, that's quite a list of pulled cards there. I hope that gives everyone a scope of this problem created and 10 years running. These cards and others just like it, month after month after month. All those conservators better have paid their taxes on that income... Thanks for pulling these and the Wagner. If it had happened 3 weeks ago like you said it would have held more weight. Better late than never.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

wow, that's quite a list of pulled cards there. I hope that gives everyone a scope of this problem created and 10 years running. These cards and others just like it, month after month after month. All those conservators better have paid their taxes on that income... Thanks for pulling these and the Wagner. If it had happened 3 weeks ago like you said it would have held more weight. Better late than never.

More like 10 years ago.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This is from an email from Betsy copied on BO but they have posted it themselves too.

"I can assure you that this process is completely unbiased; when Brent does his review he does so for the entire auction after the cards have been sorted by sport, year, and issue."

If this were ever to go to court, would Betsy's emails in regards to her husband's business practices be admissible? She cant testify against him while married and they both enjoy communications privilege, so a lawyer would have to go after another source to back up her emails about her husband's business practices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

If this were ever to go to court, would Betsy's emails in regards to her husband's business practices be admissible? She cant testify against him while married and they both enjoy communications privilege, so a lawyer would have to go after another source to back up her emails about her husband's business practices.

It's not a communication between them so it's not privileged would be my initial reaction. I don't think she can be forced to testify against him -- off the top of my head, I haven't dealt with this in years -- but presumably the document could come in without her testimony.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When will this episode air?


Maybe can they will have a week dedicated to the hobby at the rate things are going... T206 signatures and the like..

[70ToppsFanatic]

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

I believe in the stockholder statement that revealed the $800k reserves they indicated they have no insurance for guarantee returns. Why would you have a contingency fund if you carried insurance?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

On the subject of the guarantee everyone so far is making an assumption that PSA would have to pay for these out of “reserves”. However, there is another possibility.

Most service businesses carry Errors & Omissions liability insurance, as well as quite a few addition liability coverages. If a TPG carries E&O coverage it would certainly be to cover extraordinary guarantee costs beyond a reasonable deductible level that the TPG would have to pay first.

While their future premiums could be increased dramatically as a result of this, I doubt very much that a large number of guarantee claims resulting from this situation would dent a TPG too badly in terms of depleting their reserves.

And besides, in this case there is a patsy named Brent who is basically going to take the brunt of it all. The TPG records are almost certainly sufficient to be used as the basis for going after Brent criminally if he doesn’t do exactly what the TPGs he brought into harms way want him to do.

More than likely almost none of the stink of this falls back on the TPGs if they intelligently leverage what they have to hold over Brent’s head.

My gut reaction is that of all the misgraded PSA vintage cards, the great majority have nothing to do with PWCC. So perhaps for those that do involve PWCC, they will try to pin it on them. But it is my view that represents only the tip of the iceberg of PSA's potential exposure.

As to insurance coverage, that is not my area of expertise, except to say that the experiences I have had (in the real estate business) tell me that where there is potentially a lot of money on the line, carriers will look for any way out. And in this instance, I suspect they will take a long hard look at the voluminous numbers of high-grade vintage cards emanating from PSA. People for years have been opining that the sheer number is at variance with common sense, as well as reported observations from an earlier era. So this raises the issue to me of incompetence on the part of the insured which possibly could void coverage. Will an insurance company attempt to use that as a basis to deny coverage? Again, not my area of expertise but based on the limited experiences I have had, I would not be surprised to see that happen.

Also, even if such coverage does come into play, how much could it potentially cover? $1 million, $2 million, I have no idea. But I would not be surprised if whatever the limit is, it is far too little if a significant percentage of altered cards were to be returned to PSA.

[bounce]

I agree with Peter, there's plenty of ire towards the TPGs, you just have to read all of it.

PWCC is in focus because they gave market access to Moser (they've admitted as much now). They're also being questioned whether they actively participated in the alterations, and some of what has been found seems to indicate maybe they were. Until they say one way or another, we don't know FOR SURE but we have a pretty good idea.

"PSA is inept" is the easy way to give them a part in all this (and they clearly have a part in it). It's certainly the easiest answer, but that doesn't mean it's the real answer. There are reasons to believe that PSA knew who Moser was previously, and the possibility exists that they took cards directly from him or knew about his relationship with PWCC, and were taking his cards from them.

It's why the questions of (1) who sent those cards in, (2) what did they know about those cards when they were sent in, and (3) did PSA know anything about that relationship and/or if something had been done to the cards matters so much.

There's a whole matrix of what happens next depending on these answers. Some will point the financial issues to certain/all parties involved, others may point criminal issues to certain/all parties involved.

Certain outcomes are more likely than others, but obviously some things need to continue to play out.

None of the above addresses BGS, but they've got some similar and also different potential issues. They don't have the financial guarantee, so theirs is maybe a little less complicated.

[swarmee]

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal

"On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market. Our desire is to empower investors with a consistent and unbiased eye appeal assessment overseen by Brent Huigens, the founder of PWCC and a card expert with more than 25 years of experience in the industry. All pre-1987 trading cards with a market value over $250 are eligible for eye appeal review."

[swarmee]

I keep asking questions, but get no response. Doesn't PWCC want to regain our trust?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297500

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/eye-appeal

"On average, PWCC Certified cards have consistently sold for 130-200% of average market. Our desire is to empower investors with a consistent and unbiased eye appeal assessment overseen by Brent Huigens, the founder of PWCC and a card expert with more than 25 years of experience in the industry. All pre-1987 trading cards with a market value over $250 are eligible for eye appeal review."

It says the eye appeal assessment is overseen by him, not that he's the one actually doing the assessment (unless it says it somewhere else). But even if he is, do you really think he remembers every card he handles? Remember, these are being purchased by Moser as certain grade with a certain serial number and coming back for consignment with another grade and another serial number.

Reach in your pocket and pull out your change. Study each coin carefully. Now go spend them. Do this every day for the next 6 weeks and let me know if you get any of that same change back from another store within the next 6 weeks. This is basically what people are asking Brent to do - identify every card he's ever handled. Let's be realistic.