New allegations on BO

[Leon]

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Originally Posted by jchcollins

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Leon

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it.

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it.

This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by commishbob

This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.

In my case, it was an altered card - I know because I'm the one who did the altering. When I was younger and more foolish, I removed a stain on the corner of my '56 Mantle that I have had since I was 14. Because I'm an amateur and not a card doctor - what I actually did was to trade the stain for paper loss on that corner. All these years later I don't really care - I did it to make the card look better for ME (it does, and was not high-grade to begin with...) and have no intent to ever sell it or try to commit some type of fraud. The card is sentimental to me and normally raw cards like that stay exactly that way in my collection - but I did want this particular one in a slab for later when it's passed down to my girls. I had submitted to SGC more than a decade ago, not having any clue at that time about alterations and the protocol there - and of they of course did not grade it, sent it back rejected due to "questionable color" on that corner. It's not really color, but just the underlying card stock showing through. For what it is worth, I've seen other cards with similar paper loss in mid-grade numbered holders with both PSA and SGC - but again since I had no intentions to sell the card - I didn't care. Finally got around to it and sent it off late last year and requested just "A", which SGC obliged. I had the card back in less than a week.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

In actual practice, SGC uses A for any card they won't give a number grade even if it isn't altered. It's possible to choose A or just getting a card back unslabbed. When it isn't slabbed, you actually get an explanation.

This one has very rough factory cuts top and bottom. I was a bit miffed when it came back, but after some reflection, I can see why they wouldn't slab it. To most people any oddity seems like alterations. (And with the current stuff going on, that isn't likely to change)



Out of the few cards I've had rejected I got
Miscut top and bottom -shown above
Min size - a puzzler, as it's less short than another card in the same group was narrow (a regular card that was very nearly AB narrow.
Trimmed - Yep, actually trimmed on all four borders. picked it in a rush to get one last good looking card to make 10 for a special. Totally blew that one.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

When it isn't slabbed, you actually get an explanation.

LOL, I will have to look but could swear that is the same handwriting on the rejection slip I originally had for my Mantle. It was some time ago...

[Promethius88]

Out of curiosity, where has all the money gone? Has it all gone to Moser or stayed with PWCC?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Out of curiosity, where has all the money gone? Has it all gone to Moser or stayed with PWCC?

Just follow the money...LOL. Isn't that what Deepthroat told Bob Woodward...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

LOL, I will have to look but could swear that is the same handwriting on the rejection slip I originally had for my Mantle. It was some time ago...

It very well could be, that card went through SGC quite a while ago. I just looked at scans I uploaded of other cards in the same batch, and they were graded in either 2009 or 2010.

[steve B]

I'll say it, I don't think PSA isn't directly involved. I haven't seen any claims that the same sort of incompetence is found with submissions from people who aren't altering cards.
Unless by some magic happening, the same grossly incompetent grader gets all the submissions from the trimmers.

If I sent in 100 trimmed cards, I believe most if not all would be caught. Somehow the guys trimming manage to get cards through regularly that don't even meet the min size. My daughter is 8 and I could teach her to reject those.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'll say it, I don't think PSA isn't directly involved. I haven't seen any claims that the same sort of incompetence is found with submissions from people who aren't altering cards.
Unless by some magic happening, the same grossly incompetent grader gets all the submissions from the trimmers.

If I sent in 100 trimmed cards, I believe most if not all would be caught. Somehow the guys trimming manage to get cards through regularly that don't even meet the min size. My daughter is 8 and I could teach her to reject those.

You're just not as good at it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You're just not as good at it.

Other than a few hostess cards when I was a kid, I haven't done that. I still have them, but I doubt they'd grade, my pocketknife was pretty dull...