PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am not a lawyer but this doesn't seem to fit those statutes. Try again. No one committed fraud if they didn't do anything illegal? Still no answer and I am all ears as Steve and some others are. No one is saying this is good. But how can you say someone is guilty of mail fraud or wire fraud when they didn't do anything illegal. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Doing it AND saying you didn't would be.

It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.

[T206Collector]

Let’s start here:

“The Oregon Department of Justice is committed to ensuring a fair and safe market place. If you feel you’ve been taken advantage of, there are steps you can take — both online and on the phone.”

Report “scams & fraud” here:

https://www.doj.state.or.us/consumer...t-scams-fraud/

Right now there do not appear to be any consumer complaints filed against PWCC. We can all fix that by clicking the link above.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Let’s start here:

“The Oregon Department of Justice is committed to ensuring a fair and safe market place. If you feel you’ve been taken advantage of, there are steps you can take — both online and on the phone.”

Report “scams & fraud” here:

https://www.doj.state.or.us/consumer...t-scams-fraud/

Right now there do not appear to be any consumer complaints filed against PWCC. We can all fix that by clicking the link above.

Now Leon's a lawyer and this is all fine a good. Thanks Leon. I thought you were better than that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Nice spin, Chuck. None of us were defending their actions or questioning the morality of it. We were questioning the legality of it.

In another thread I was willing to give 4:1 odds that says Brent is not indicted. Wanna take that bet? Got balls, or are you dickless?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nice spin, Chuck. None of us were defending their actions or questioning the morality of it. We were questioning the legality of it.

In another thread I was willing to give 4:1 odds that says Brent is not indicted. Wanna take that bet? Got balls, or are you dickless?

Unfortunately, I'm dickless. The guy who played poker against Pugsy Pearson, Amarillo Slim and Doyle Brunson doesn't bet anymore Sorry.

One thing I'm sure we can agree on is that Brent Mastro has ZERO integrity. I personally just hate idiots like him trying to scam the "system" with no Integrity. Don't kid yourself. That's exactly what it is. A scam and a fraud for money. That makes it a crime.

It's 10-1 he gets arrested because nobody cares outside these forums. Mr Dickless will be very happy to pay to get this fiasco started. Mr Dickless will donate 3K to Jeffrey right now to kick off the proceedings.

[Leon]

Quit being so dramatic. I am no lawyer I am just having a discussion.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Now Leon's a lawyer and this is all fine a good. Thanks Leon. I thought you were better than that.

[Leon]

There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.

I'm done. You're not listening and or you don't understand. I'm not debating the law with non-lawyers any more. If you think you know the law better than I do, God bless.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm done. You're not listening and or you don't understand. I'm not debating the law with non-lawyers any more. If you think you know the law better than I do, God bless.

You keep directing us to these Codes. We're not lawyers, but we're not stupid either. The act to which these Codes applies has to be illegal. We're just questioning if the act (doctoring) is legal or not?

We're not question the morality of it, just the legality of it.

In other words, at what point does it become an illegal activity? It is illegal to trim a card? Is it illegal to send that card in for grading? If it receives a numeric grade, is it illegal to sell it? At which point, which one of these steps, does it become illegal and how?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You keep directing us to these Codes. We're not lawyers, but we're not stupid either. The act to which these Codes applies has to be illegal. We're just questioning if the act (doctoring) is legal or not?

We're not question the morality of it, just the legality of it.

In other words, at what point does it become an illegal activity? It is illegal to trim a card? Is it illegal to send that card in for grading? If it receives a numeric grade, is it illegal to sell it. At which point, which one of these steps, does it become illegal and how?

Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, or participating in a scheme to do so, using the mail and or the wires. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, using the mail and or the wires to do so. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

where, as alluded to before, fraudulent is this:

Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud
www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm
SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by griffon512

where, as alluded to before, fraudulent is this:

Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud
www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm
SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived.

Understood. But some could argue that it's not fraud if it improved the condition of the card as some truly believe. See my example above. If I re-wire a house because it has old, faulty wiring and then sell the house, do I have to disclose that it was re-wired? Do I have to disclose other upgrades? Do you not see where I'm coming from?

I guess what I'm saying is that Moser, Brent or whoever could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, using the mail and or the wires to do so. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.

He got you there, Pete!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.

I didn't draft the statutes, David, they are what they are. There are jurisdictional limitations on the reach of federal law. Other laws might apply to your situation.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.

Laws like that are actually common. The legislators figure the people that can sell through the mail have 1000s of more potential customers that someone that has to have someone show up at a show. So they are trying to catch the bigger players. Not saying there are loopholes are that it isnt silly but thats the justification of that conflict...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Last time. It's not the doctoring itself, it's the fraudulent selling of a doctored card, or participating in a scheme to do so, using the mail and or the wires. Fraud is the knowing misrepresentation or concealment of a material fact.

How many times do you have to spell it out? It's like 3rd grade here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

How many times do you have to spell it out? It's like 3rd grade here.

I know. This is truly not a very difficult concept to grasp.

[Kenny Cole]

Failing to disclose a material fact is fraud by non-disclosure, also known as fraudulent concealment. You don't have to affirmatively lie by saying something that isn't the truth. Failing to speak may also be fraud. I think that may be part of the disconnect.

If you trim a card, get it by the graders (which seems to be much easier that I had previously thought it might be) and either consign it to be sold or sell it directly yourself as worth whatever numerical grade it was given, that is fraud. The numerical grade is a material fact upon which the buyer based their decision to pay $XXX.00 for it upon. If you trimmed it (or knew it was trimmed) you have committed fraud by non-disclosure because you knew it didn't deserve a numerical grade. You have a duty to disclose that, plain and simple. Every time. If you use the mails or wires as part of your selling scheme, you get to look at mail or wire fraud.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Leon

There was no material misrepresentation and no fraud unless the trimmer said he didn't do it. Trimming a card isn't illegal. Sending a trimmed card through the mail isn't illegal. You can quit now.

I am not condoning any of this mess I am just not sensing the strong case you think there is UNLESS there is some paper trail evidence that comes about. I expect there very well could be. But you are the lawyer. I guess we will see. I hope heads do roll for whomever is committing fraud. And I think this whole debacle sucks and is bad for the hobby short term and good for it long term.

for us non-lawyers the following two links explain peter's point:

1) very simple (look at questions 47-50): https://quizlet.com/56869821/chapter-13-flash-cards/

2) more comprehensive if one is looking for a greater understanding: https://guide.iacrc.org/the-basics-o...investigators/

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It is illegal to use the mail or wires to commit fraud. Selling something while intentionally misrepresenting or concealing a material fact is fraud. Doing it repeatedly is a scheme to defraud. I can't do this over and over. If you think you know the law better than I do, that's fine, I really don't care at this point honestly.

The thing is, if PSA has graded a card as a "6", and I sell it as a "PSA 6", how have I done anything illegal?

If I know the card used to be a PSA 4, and it is now a PSA 6, how have I done anything illegal? Cards are routinely resubmitted and regraded constantly, with different grades; how do I determine which grade is correct? Answer is, I go by PSA's latest opinion.

Now, if I take a PSA 4 card, remove it from the holder, alter it, and then resubmit it to PSA, and PSA regrades it as a 6, how is that illegal? There is no law prohibiting it. PSA's "policy" is that certain alterations would preclude that card from getting a numerical grade; while some alterations are perfectly acceptable. That is only PSA's internal "policy" though; it is not codified in law. If it is now a PSA 6, and I sell it as such, that is not illegal.

Beckett grades "sheet-cut" cards. PSA doesn't. If I get an uncut sheet of 1979 Topps hockey, and cut the Gretzky out of it, and submit it to Beckett, they'll grade it. If I send it to PSA, they say in their "policy", that they won't grade it. But say in this instance, PSA grades the card as a 10; and I in turn, sell it as a PSA 10. How is that illegal? It is legal. Some collectors may not like it, but there is nothing "illegal" about it.

Steve

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Steve D

The thing is, if PSA has graded a card as a "6", and I sell it as a "PSA 6", how have I done anything illegal?

If I know the card used to be a PSA 4, and it is now a PSA 6, how have I done anything illegal? Cards are routinely resubmitted and regraded constantly, with different grades; how do I determine which grade is correct? Answer is, I go by PSA's latest opinion.

Now, if I take a PSA 4 card, remove it from the holder, alter it, and then resubmit it to PSA, and PSA regrades it as a 6, how is that illegal? There is no law prohibiting it. PSA's "policy" is that certain alterations would preclude that card from getting a numerical grade; while some alterations are perfectly acceptable. That is only PSA's internal "policy" though; it is not codified in law. If it is now a PSA 6, and I sell it as such, that is not illegal.

Beckett grades "sheet-cut" cards. PSA doesn't. If I get an uncut sheet of 1979 Topps hockey, and cut the Gretzky out of it, and submit it to Beckett, they'll grade it. If I send it to PSA, they say in their "policy", that they won't grade it. But say in this instance, PSA grades the card as a 10; and I in turn, sell it as a PSA 10. How is that illegal? It is legal. Some collectors may not like it, but there is nothing "illegal" about it.

Steve

What is your opinion on money laundering.

[T206Collector]

Wow

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Wow

I believe that's the thread or whatever the right noun is where the post or whatever the right noun is from Brent, pretending only recently to have heard about Moser, appears.