|
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases? Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence. None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved. There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now. Said differently, it's always "short". |
#2
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
WTB: Autographed 1984 USFL Reggie White, 1955 Len Ford, 1986 Wilber Marshall, 1957 Johnny Unitas |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.
You don't get what you don't ask for.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#5
|
||||
|
||||
Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
A lot of collectors are just in it for the money and ego though, at the high end of things. Not all of course.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
PSA has a very tough needle to thread, on the one hand the people who hate altered cards and are livid are going to demand major change; on the other hand people with major bucks tied up in collections may resist that change if it means taking away some of their high grade cards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
They can turn them in now or see their value plummet in 6 months.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why. #1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy. #2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event. #3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it. So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well. There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway. |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.
I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this? |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
I believe both wire fraud and mail fraud can be applied if those responsible are not disclosing the alteration and using the internet and/or USPS to sell the card in question. Depending on the volume and aggregate value of the cards involved there also might be a a racketeering/RICO issue.
|
#14
|
||||
|
||||
I answered you, but maybe you didn't read it. Or maybe I don't count, that's fine lol.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-02-2019 at 09:02 PM. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Where money is involved, that makes it a crime. Proving it sufficiently to convict in a court of law, could be a long road. This game is in the early innings still, there's a lot more to come. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Negligence of this kind is not a legal violation. It’s a civil tort. |
#19
|
||||
|
||||
Knowledge of the law is not a prerequisite here to pontificating about the law.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
Negligence is not a crime.
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
You see nothing fraudulent in that? |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If someone can point me to a law saying that the seller of a collectible needs to disclosure any alterations done to the card prior to the sale I’m all ears. Not justifying this just wondering what law enforcement is up to. If they are up to anything. Last edited by Snapolit1; 06-02-2019 at 09:16 PM. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
18 USC 1341 and 1343.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-02-2019 at 09:37 PM. |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
This!!
Quote:
__________________
Leon Luckey |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies | Stonepony | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 204 | 05-27-2019 05:33 PM |
PWCC Recent Closings | Exhibitman | Boxing / Wrestling Cards & Memorabilia Forum | 8 | 03-29-2018 04:05 PM |
Recent PWCC Auction | Snapolit1 | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 2 | 09-08-2016 12:50 PM |
Thoughts on this card? (trimming, stain, etc) | scmavl | Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) | 4 | 04-01-2011 11:32 AM |
Interesting Story Concerning Card Trimming and Grading | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 15 | 04-10-2002 05:43 PM |