Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It’s still gone. Why??

Strange coincidence especially since Bobby just posted?

[SAllen2556]

Has there been any comment from any of the owners of these doctored cards who have contacted PSA, and what PSA's response has been?

You would think the people in charge over at PSA would want to get on top of this as soon as possible. Even a statement claiming that these cards represent only a small percentage of the total number of graded cards, blah, blah, blah. The silence from PSA is becoming deafening isn't it ?

And now with the elementary schools getting out for the summer, a whole new batch of graders is likely being hired. PSA, at the very least, is going to have to modify their training for this year's kids.

[bnorth]

Is anyone making a list of all the scammers being exposed?

I might be movin' to Oregon soon
Just to conserve some cards
Trimming them up
Waxen it down
Sending in a little white box
I can sell through Pwcc
By myself I wouldn't
Have no boss,

Well I just might grow me some bees
But I'd leave the sweet stuff
For somebody else...
but then, on the other hand
I'd Keep the wax N' melt it down
Pour it on the cards N' swish it aroun'

Movin' to Oregon soon
Gonna be a card conservation tycoon
(yes I am)
Movin' to Oregon soon
Just me and my pygmy pony.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is anyone making a list of all the scammers being exposed?

No, but I plan to make a directory of the related threads as a public service.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is anyone making a list of all the scammers being exposed?

I might be movin' to Oregon soon
Just to conserve some cards
Trimming them up
Waxen it down
Sending in a little white box
I can sell through Pwcc
By myself I wouldn't
Have no boss,

Well I just might grow me some bees
But I'd leave the sweet stuff
For somebody else...
but then, on the other hand
I'd Keep the wax N' melt it down
Pour it on the cards N' swish it aroun'

Movin' to Montana soon
Gonna be a card conservation tycoon
(yes I am)
Movin' to Montana soon
Just me and my pygmy pony.

Frank would have loved it. And unlike David's 4 to 1, I figure the odds [of an indictment] be 50-50.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Frank would have loved it. And unlike David's 4 to 1, I figure the odds [of an indictment] be 50-50.

I am more at 50-1 myself. This has been going on way too long and almost everyone is in on it. The Masto thing scared a few out of the business but the big scammers just got bigger. They(scammers) also learned from that, that almost no one cares.

I honestly think there is 1 guy that could take them all down if he was ever busted. He seems to be connected to all the big scammers but you would have to get by his lawyer first.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

4:1 odds.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I figure the odds [of an indictment] be 50-50.

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am more at 50-1 myself.

Odds all over the place. What does Vegas say?

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=bnorth;1881799]Is anyone making a list of all the scammers being exposed?

There is a "sticky" thread on BO that has links to all these threads to make it easier to find them. Its under the member sales, trade feedback area...

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

There is a "sticky" thread on BO that has links to all these threads to make it easier to find them. Its under the member sales, trade feedback area...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

Appreciated the post comparing the situation at hand to the movie, The Big Short.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David I know they concluded that, and I do recall he admitted subbing the DiMaggio card, but I can't recall all the steps in their reasoning. But he clearly knew what this individual did to cards, I can attest to that myself from conversations.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I have asked multiple times for proof of this, but my requests have gone ignored. If it's been posted, then I simply overlooked it so please re-post.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

There is no cliff notes version of this. It's extensive, some of it is complicated, portions of it are speculative but there's often good reason for that speculation, a lot of it is still "circumstantial" because OBVIOUSLY no one is going to directly admit to trimming cards on a message board. However, the pictures speak for themselves. There are HUNDREDS of them, across all sports and non-sports, vintage and modern.

Using the the slab numbers of those that are pretty clearly trimmed, leads to other slabs numbered close to those, which at least at some level casts some doubt over those other cards. Not conclusive, maybe not even circumstantial, but certainly questionable.

There is also extensive work done that indicates specific buyers of certain cards, particularly from prior PWCC auctions, that then came back into later PWCC auctions with higher grades and updated flowery descriptions. Since we don't know who the consigners were, and OBVIOUSLY PWCC isn't going to tell us that, it's still circumstantial at best. The SPECULATION is that possibly those cards were busted out of the cases, sent back raw to PWCC to be submitted to PSA for grading, and then coming back in the new better cases and FREQUENTLY given the PQ/HE stickers.

PWCC appears to admit knowing who some of these people are, and admitting to having done business with them in the past in their tenets thread. PWCC in their video said "pictures are not evidence", which is just a silly thing to say, especially considering earlier on in March-May PWCC had taken down some auctions when they were identified as trimmed USING PICTURES. They've also said they don't know who the consignors are when the stickers are given out, but that just doesn't ring true and has been refuted by at least one consignor.

If you prefer to play lawyer, then I guess there's some scenario that can be created where PWCC didn't know anything and is really a victim here. Maybe there's a scenario where PSA/BGS didn't really know these people either. However, the volume that's been discovered thus far is pretty overwhelming, and it's not a huge leap of logic to believe there is very likely much more out there to be discovered.

I suspect it will take some legal authorities to get involved to accelerate the discovery and get to the funds flow, but based on what has been found thus far it's not hard to imagine there's a lot more interaction between the TPGs, PWCC and the bad actors than anyone is currently letting on. Give it time.

This is NOT going away. Go read just some of those threads and try to convince yourself that these "investigators" sound like they're just planning to drop all this at some point. Not gonna happen.

[Stampsfan]

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1276110&page=4
Superior Sports (Sliheets in Dallas)

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1255123
BuyNiceCards (E Bitz) - White Knights on Page 12, 14 defending Bitz.

I know there are some more, but those threads go on for ever. Would be nice if they had a pinned thread for all Banned usernames and what thread they were banned for... ;-)

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1276110&page=4
Superior Sports (Sliheets in Dallas)

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1255123
BuyNiceCards (E Bitz) - White Knights on Page 12, 14 defending Bitz.

I know there are some more, but those threads go on for ever. Would be nice if they had a pinned thread for all Banned usernames and what thread they were banned for... ;-)

Thanks John!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sallen2556

and now with the elementary schools getting out for the summer, a whole new batch of graders is likely being hired. Psa, at the very least, is going to have to modify their training for this year's kids.

lol!

Edited to add: In all seriousness though, why don't submitters know the qualifications of a grader? They just blindly submit without knowing anything. If you were going to hire a contractor to do some work at your house, wouldn't you want to know their qualifications? Experience? Makes no sense to me.