Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Fuddjcal]

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PSA, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PS, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

Yesyesyes

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

+1

I think there are many parties involved. All it takes is for one to get caught and then that person will start turning on others. I truly believe it will happen soon.

[jchcollins]

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Plausible deniability.

Conscious avoidance.

Follow the money.

Post 1150 onward. (Football player) Betsy was informed of this card currently in their auction but the auction is still up and open.

I guess the old saying talk is cheap is true, or tell the people what they want to hear not what is reality.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=46

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

As a kid collecting in the early 80s I was duped a few times into buying counterfeit cards...a frojoy ruth sheet...a fake mayo. I bought a 1971 Thurman Munson at a show over 20 years ago and was later shown that the edges were marked in to make it look better.

I think the doctoring has gotten much more advanced over the last 20 years mostly due to third-party grading and the values these cards can bring

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

That is an interesting take.

So the solution to the rampant trimming and alteration (professional grading) caused so much price inflation and value that it by extension created more fraud and trimming so crooks could take advantage of the increases in price? LOL.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

That is an interesting take.

So the solution to the rampant trimming and alteration (professional grading) caused so much price inflation and value that it by extension created more fraud and trimming so crooks could take advantage of the increases in price? LOL.

If it's any consolation, the work being done now is much better than the crude slice jobs from the 80s and early 90s.

[Orioles1954]

How many graders work for PSA or BGS? What are the standards to become a professional grader and is there any certification? How many cards are graders expected to turn around per day?

[frankbmd]

I believe the staff at PWCC has increased in recent years, and now there are no doubt openings for 24/7 Vault Wardens.

With increased fees paid to TPGs for high valued cards, would there not be an incentive to avoid rejecting all or the majority of such cards submitted? If all the altered and conserved cards were not given a numerical grade, it seems to me that the TPG would be shooting themselves in the foot. How many times is one going to donate $500 to an organization for an unslabbed and ungraded card. After all you have to have a slab and a number to qualify for a sticker, at least until PWCC begins offering raw stickers.

And how will the Vault Wardens be equipped, with billy clubs or tasers?

[vintagetoppsguy]

An anonymous source has sent me undercover surveillance photos of a PSA grader accepting cash bribes in exchange for better grades...

[chalupacollects]

And how will the Vault Wardens be equipped, with billy clubs or tasers?

No, a ruler, scissors and a razor blade...

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it's any consolation, the work being done now is much better than the crude slice jobs from the 80s and early 90s.

True. But in an odd irony, I do think it has kind of come full circle.