Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

False equivalency.

Go back and read VCBC 7. These people are very sophisticated.

But wouldn't it depend on the type of doctoring? Obviously a black light isn't going to detect a water soaking or a trim job, but it should detect added paper (building up corners) or re-coloring, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But wouldn't it depend on the type of doctoring? Obviously a black light isn't going to detect a water soaking or a trim job, but it should detect added paper (building up corners) or re-coloring, right?

I would think unless they have come up with ways to pass a black light test, which I agree seems unlikely. I don't think, though, that that's where the major alteration is taking place, I think it's trimming, filing, taking out creases, laying down corners.

[barrysloate]

Then if it is in fact impossible to detect sophisticated alterations, then what is the purpose of the whole third party grading business? To make cards marketable, and to make sure as many clients as possible are making money with slabbed material.

[jchcollins]

Maybe a new TPG could be started, even by somebody here - with a focus only on authentication and detection of attempts at altering - along the lines of earilier suggestions where that and that alone, not a numerical grade - is what is important. My fear of course is that we would be in the vast minority with something like that, and it would not be a sustainable business.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Then if it is in fact impossible to detect sophisticated alterations, then what is the purpose of the whole third party grading business? To make cards marketable, and to make sure as many clients as possible are making money with slabbed material.

I asked the same question in another thread, just in a different way. I was told it was to "add value" to the card. Well, the card doctors are certainly doing that.

[drcy]

There are many other sophisticated scientific methods that could be used: authenticating art and artifacts

One word that I often use: provenance. Cards that have been altered don't have a history-- or at least a history that shows it wasn't altered. Of course there are new finds. However, as autograph expert Jim Stinson once said of autographs: “Authentic autographs have a history or sources. Forgeries do not. They just ‘appear’.” Provenance is one thing that is standard is the high end art collecting world that is not in baseball card world.

Also, common sense is always useful.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by drcy

One word that I often use: provenance. Cards that have been altered don't have a history-- or at least a history that shows it wasn't altered. Of course there are new finds. However, as autograph expert Jim Stinson once said of autographs: “Authentic autographs have a history or sources. Forgeries do not. They just ‘appear’.” Provenance is one thing that is standard is the high end art collecting world that is not in baseball card world.

+1

[benjulmag]

Not being a slabbed card collector I am unfamiliar with the legal obligations of grading companies and don't know what if any disclaimers and/or damages limitations language is contained in their submission form.

Here's my question. I buy a PSA 8 T206 Cobb for $150k.
I subsequently CONCLUSIVELY establish through advanced forensic testing that the card was altered in such a manner that it should have been graded an "A". Am I entitled to receive damages from PSA and if so, what would they be?

It would seem to me that if PSA is on the hook for the $150k I paid for the card (and in return PSA has the right to resell the card (this time graded "A") and keep the sale proceeds), they have one huge contingent liability on their balance sheet. If I am correct in my view that the (great) majority of many types of N and T cards graded 8' and higher are altered, which alterations could be conclusively established through sophisticated forensic testing, PSA potentially could be wiped out.

Am I wrong in this assessment?

[steve B]

A really quality alteration should still be detectable. The Philatelic foundation (One of the authenticators for stamps) showed a collection of alterations they'd caught. I'm pretty good at spotting that stuff on an item in hand, but most of what they showed I'm not sure I'd have caught.

But then, I only looked for the same few seconds graders at the grading companies do.

And that's the problem. A quick inspection won't catch any thing but the simplest alterations. Philatelic foundation etc can take months, but they are seldom wrong. And the more money is involved, the slower they are.

As far as I know getting a rebuilt corner past a blacklight wouldn't be all that hard.

[irv]

Originally Posted by drcy

There are many other sophisticated scientific methods that could be used: authenticating art and artifacts

One word that I often use: provenance. Cards that have been altered don't have a history-- or at least a history that shows it wasn't altered. Of course there are new finds. However, as autograph expert Jim Stinson once said of autographs: “Authentic autographs have a history or sources. Forgeries do not. They just ‘appear’.” Provenance is one thing that is standard is the high end art collecting world that is not in baseball card world.

Also, common sense is always useful.

The only problem with common sense is, it's not very common.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Philatelic foundation (One of the authenticators for stamps) showed a collection of alterations they'd caught.

I can tell you after having spent the past 15 mins or so on the website of the Philatelic Foundation, that it's a very interesting place. And funny enough I ran into no registry competitions or SMR-type price guides...

[Throttlesteer]

PWCC's recent inclusion of high-res scans should help with some of this stuff. But, nothing is going to be 100%.

[Exhibitman]

The initial TPG marketing (PSA) was to detect altered cards and avoid card doctors. That was the scary advertising PSA used. The SMR was created to boost PSA card prices and market the service in the guise of price guide; I wrote an article on the fake pricing and false marketing in the SMR; VCBC ran it. Fun to write but no impact.

Fast-Forward to the creation of the Registry and the TPG idea has morphed into a pee-pee measuring mechanism: the higher the grade, the bigger the wiener. Or so I've been told (I judge myself against other collectors by height). With great power comes great responsibility. But not in PSA's case. With great power comes great disclaimers. PSA says: "PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA." It is circular: PSA guarantees it will apply its own procedures and standards, which are basically, it will look at the card and opine on it. It is a popcorn fart. Now we learn that PSA graders really aren't that good at their first job of detecting alterations. Like airport security, PSA is aimed at stopping stupid, lazy, sloppy amateur wannabes while giving the illusion of safety to the masses. Just like no security can stop a well planned attack, the fact is that no TPG can detect properly done removals and now we are seeing that they also aren't much at detecting really good work. So we must have a remedy with PSA, right? The buy-back remedy PSA offers applies: "If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards". Another popcorn fart: you disagree with PSA? Tough, unless you have a Mastro style confession or photographic evidence of the alterations. But at least there is a shot there. Not so with PWCC.

The PWCC case is more interesting because it shows some underlying assumptions of collectors that are not merited. What exactly is PWCC selling when they sell a PSA 8 Joe DiMaggio card? The assumption here is that they are selling a guarantee that the card is an unaltered one and that when someone demonstrates that PSA screwed the pooch, PWCC is liable. For what, exactly? The reality is that PWCC is selling precisely what it delivers: the DiMaggio card that is in a PSA 8 slab. The meaning of that designation is based on the reputation of PSA for detecting alterations: see above. Now, the best remedy any PWCC buyer of one of these shady cards has is to make a quick return via eBay or PayPal for item not as described. But beyond that, except for the cards that have been successfully traced, you are dealing with opinions layered on assumptions. I wouldn't want that case on a contingency fee.

[CrackaJackKid]

How close are Joe and Brent? 🤔🤔🤔