Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For purposes of this thread, hubris in attempting to change well-accepted hobby definitions of altered cards.

I didn't find that in the United States Code, Peter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I didn't find that in the United States Code, Peter.

The Book of Proverbs. Pride goeth before a fall.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Book of Proverbs. Pride goeth before a fall.

Yes but if Samson cut his hair only halfway would he still have had the strength to kill 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass?

Edited to add the emoji

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes but if Samson cut his hair only halfway would he still have had the strength to kill 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass?

Edited to add the emoji

Depends on the jawbone.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Depends on the jawbone.

What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

Well, Brent presumably has a jawbone, so there you go.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well, Brent presumably has a jawbone, so there you go.

Yes but I am proudly bolding this part of my response. Therefore the jawbone has a job it must do.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

Only if the jawbone was a 6 and is now an 8....

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

What if it's the jawbone's job to smite the Philistines? Does that make Brent guilty?

I'll wait.

I gave up smoting years ago.

"Anyone really care what some freaking hayseed in Oregon thinks about cards?"

Ted, best line of the year.

A Lord on high at one of the TPGs admitted to me years ago that they are all aware that cards are being altered but that they cannot detect a good job of removing a foreign substance from a card. Light erasures, soakings, etc., it has been going on ever since TPGs started minting money for their customers based on the perceived grade of the card and it is not going to stop.

No one is going to be swayed by anything said here. The fans of PWCC and those who don't care what happened to get a card into a TPG holder have their beliefs and nothing rational will shake them.

DRCY writes: "If this all a method to hide from bidders and buyers the presence of conservation or restoration or other alterations, it's wrong"

I view it as more of an effort to shift concern away from criticism of the piss-poor job the TPGs have done on delivering on their promises of no alterations getting through their sieves. PWCC's entire business rests on two concepts: the TPG-encapsulated cards are what they are and as long as they have the right capsules around them the cards themselves are basically interchangeable commodities. Well, we know that the TPGs are missing all sorts of stuff: fake signatures, trimmed cards, cleaned cards, etc. So what can you do in the face of the evidence? Change the discussion or change the parameters of what you define as a wrongful alteration. The discussion itself ain't gonna change, so the OP is just a way of trying to sell us on the idea that even if the PSA or BGS slab has a card that has had one of these procedures, like a bath and cleaning, that's fine because it merely brought the card back towards its original state and the TPG then blessed it. So what if it went from a 4 to a 7 and the person who rode that train will make a fortune?

It's bulls**t of the highest order tossed out there to keep the gravy train rolling.

[Bigdaddy]

So should I feel bad about wiping wax stains off of my 1970s Topps cards with my shirt-tail?

And should I disclose the deed? It may not warrant a numerical bump by a TPG, but it could eliminate the dreaded (ST) qualifier.

BTW, thank you BLong for putting some of the pieces together and shedding more light on all of this. Much like the college admissions scandal, I'm a bit disheartened, but not surprised.