PWCC planning to redefine the difference between altered and conserved in cards

[Exhibitman]

I've always been in favor of proper conservation including cleaning, de-acidifying, etc. These are lithographs or photographs and need to be considered as such and treated responsibly. I've lost a few old cards to acid damage--they just fell apart across creases--and it is heartbreaking to a collector. If they conserved the Sistine Chapel frescoes I think it is OK for my Goudey card. Adding stuff to a card or rebacking it or similar restoration is where the line should be drawn. Soaking and pressing is right on that line, IMO. Probably something that I want disclosed but I am realistic enough to know it won't be. The micro-trimming and slabbing is a fraud, plain and simple.

I also have to observe with regard to the orthodox position on conservation that the 'no touch' mentality comes from the PSA advertising of two decades ago when they were trying to scare people into using TPG services. "Thou shalt not clean a card" is not a Commandment, but is the end product of successful advertising to the effect that only untouched cards will get past the PSA cops and only then will they be worthy of our interest. Other hobbies that do not have TPG overlords do not act this way, Take postcard collecting . Postcard dealers routinely pencil the prices onto the card backs and collectors routinely remove them using at artgum eraser and no one except us sports card collectors slumming it at postcard shows gives a damn because a faint pencil mark on a postcard isn't the difference between high value and low value unless some TPG slaps plastic on it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I agree with much of what Adam says but I don't see how soaking and pressing is a gray area. It seems to me it's done -- or the vast majority of the time anyhow -- not to conserve a card but to improve its appearance and value, in an effort to deceive. If someone wants to do it and disclose it, that's fine with me, but that will happen on the 13th of Never.

[conor912]

I got to a point a while back where I started just assuming that every card I buy, slabbed or not, has had something done to it over the years. The whole "hobby purist" thing felt good in the beginning but franky just became too exhausting. If I see a card I like the looks of at a price I like, I buy it. If an alteration is undisclosed and I can't see it, then chances are the next guy isn't going to either. And no, I don't consider this burying my head in the sand, it's just a place of peace I've had to come to if I was going to enjoy continuing to collect. All the hemming and hawing in the world isn't going to control what other people do.
Coming off of a recent health scare has put this more in focus than ever. Hug your kids. Kiss your wives. If collecting causes you stress, don't do it. There's plenty of other amazing things in the world to spend your time and money on.

[barrysloate]

Maybe it's time for the hobby to address what is acceptable and what isn't in terms of card restoration. This could be part of a panel discussion, perhaps at a future National. The panel could consist of representatives from the grading services, long time hobbyists, and experts in paper restoration. Removing some soot off the surface of a card is a far cry from rebacking, trimming, and other extreme alterations. Hobbyists could attend the conference and provide feedback. This is a critical hobby issue that is not getting the attention it merits.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Maybe it's time for the hobby to address what is acceptable and what isn't in terms of card restoration. This could be part of a panel discussion, perhaps at a future National. The panel could consist of representatives from the grading services, long time hobbyists, and experts in paper restoration. Removing some soot off the surface of a card is a far cry from rebacking, trimming, and other extreme alterations. Hobbyists could attend the conference and provide feedback. This is a critical hobby issue that is not getting the attention it merits.

Yeah like card doctors are going to show up and weigh in. I would think this out again, Barry, as the song from Oliver goes. Anyhow, the issue isn't what the standard is, it's that people are good at getting altered cards past the grading services and sellers accept cards from them willingly and don't disclose even when they know there's a problem.

This hobby is never going to police itself, IMO. Too much sleaze and too much money. It will take law enforcement.

[Exhibitman]

Maybe it is time we stopped worrying about the TPGs. Candidly, a quality removal or restoration is rarely caught by a TPG. I find it ironic that people live and die by TPG determinations: that's too much power to cede to them.

Peter, one soaks a card for a number of reasons not involving the alleged stretching and micro-cutting of edges: dirt removal, acid neutralization, etc. Creases can be soaked out, especially if they are wrinkles that did not actually flake off parts of the image. I am not sure it is possible to police motives in this regard, just the outcome.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Maybe it is time we stopped worrying about the TPGs. Candidly, a quality removal or restoration is rarely caught by a TPG. I find it ironic that people live and die by TPG determinations: that's too much power to cede to them.

Peter, one soaks a card for a number of reasons not involving the alleged stretching and micro-cutting of edges: dirt removal, acid neutralization, etc. Creases can be soaked out, especially if they are wrinkles that did not actually flake off parts of the image. I am not sure it is possible to police motives in this regard, just the outcome.

Adam yes, but you said "soaking and pressing" which I took to mean both, not just soaking. You wouldn't press a card to neutralize acid would you?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah like card doctors are going to show up and weigh in. I would think this out again, Barry, as the song from Oliver goes. Anyhow, the issue isn't what the standard is, it's that people are good at getting altered cards past the grading services and sellers accept cards from them willingly and don't disclose even when they know there's a problem.

This hobby is never going to police itself, IMO. Too much sleaze and too much money. It will take law enforcement.

Let me clarify: I wasn't referring to the known card doctors, but third oarty paper restorers who are not actively involved in the hobby. I realize that nobody cares enough to do anything, and would prefer the status quo. But I just wanted to make a suggestion.

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This hobby is never going to police itself, IMO. Too much sleaze and too much money. It will take law enforcement.

It is what it has always been - a hobby that requires no education or licensing, has no regulations, no professional associations, and little risk of ever getting prosecuted for misdeeds.

It certainly can be frustrating, but maybe a little perspective is required.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

It is what it has always been - a hobby that requires no education or licensing, has no regulations, no professional associations, and little risk of ever getting prosecuted for misdeeds.

It certainly can be frustrating, but maybe a little perspective is required.

Messrs. Mastro and Allen might disagree with you about the prosecuted part.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Maybe it's time for the hobby to address what is acceptable and what isn't in terms of card restoration. This could be part of a panel discussion, perhaps at a future National. The panel could consist of representatives from the grading services, long time hobbyists, and experts in paper restoration. Removing some soot off the surface of a card is a far cry from rebacking, trimming, and other extreme alterations. Hobbyists could attend the conference and provide feedback. This is a critical hobby issue that is not getting the attention it merits.

This idea makes the most sense to me.

[bobbyw8469]

Nice "Reviewing The Situation" reference. This has been an interested read for me.